Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

5nl 6-max Zoom JJ oop against 2 Regs

Old
Default
5nl 6-max Zoom JJ oop against 2 Regs - Tue Oct 23, 2012, 10:02 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
This hands got *everything* that I've got on my list 'o 'room for improvement' ... it's:

- multi-way
- against 2 4-tabling regs (one TAG, one LAG)
- out of position
- JJ (good, but not great hand)
- one of the biggest action flops in poker :/
- I flop the *2nd* nuts
- should I be raising or calling?
- and if so, when, where, how much?
- and oooh ... that river call - eep :/


Villain Stats and NoteTracker:

Villain 4 (UTG)

[P] 3Bet Blind vs steals w/{AKs} (1)
[P] 3Bet range {AKs,QTs} (2)
[P] Called 2Bet from blinds range {33} (1)
[T] Played turn draw aggressively (1)

Villain 6 (BUTTON)

[P] 3Bet range {AKo} (1)
[P] Called 2Bet from blinds range {A9s,76s,QJo} (3)
[T] Played turn draw aggressively (1)




So ... well, would have been nice to win this hand But I guess there's all that educational value there, so I kind of still like this hand for that reason. It totally seems like the kind of hand a better player could easily have won with, so hopefully one day ...


On the plus side ... after I started playing a wider range from the bb by calling more raises from the button (like we learned in Live Training), my bb graph all of a sudden stopped going down and went sideways (at around 2,300 hands) - quite noticeably too, eh? I think I may have gone a little far in the opposite direction a couple of times and called too lose, but overall I'm pretty thrilled with the changes, so that's been really nice


Last edited by TrustySam; Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 10:33 PM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Oct 23, 2012, 11:18 PM
(#2)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
Hi Sam. I'm wondering why you didn't bet on the turn? I think your opponent would probably have folded their pocket tens and gutshot to another bet.

 
Old
Default
Tue Oct 23, 2012, 11:52 PM
(#3)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
I felt like I was pretty polarized - either really behind 9Ts (on the button), or really ahead (like 90/10 against draws or TPTK ... and both players are aggro, one is fairly tight - and both called in a multi-way pot. So I expected at least one of them to bet. And then at least I'd have info from which one bet, and which one checked or folded - and I'd get to see how big the bet was.

If I had known that neither was going to bet, then obviously I would have. But like ... I guess it's always easier to win hands like these after we get to see other people act first, eh? Not so easy when it's the other way around I think ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 11:54 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Oct 24, 2012, 01:06 AM
(#4)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hi Sam

If we are leading the flop out of position, on a wet board, three way here then we should continue to lead on this card. We may get some folds, sure, but we are in the midst of building a big pot with the effective nuts on the turn and one if not both opponents can stick around once again.

What is likely going to happen with a high frequency if we check is that it checks through as it did. We can't let that happen with our set!

So I think if you lead you should commit to leading for value as the hand goes on. Getting two calls on the flop was a great result and we got a safe turn in terms of deciding whether we can stack off profitably or not.

The alternative is definitely to check-raise the flop, which I would do pretty often. I think it is close between leading and check-raising, both have their place and merits.

On the river though I would rather bet/fold 1/2p than check-call this size. Our opponent is betting on a four straight into two opponents. He also didn't take the opportunity to bluff the turn. So I would be pretty resigned to thinking he has a T in his hand here pretty often when he bets the river. Often enough that we cannot check-call this bet.

Hope this all makes some sense
 
Old
Default
Wed Oct 24, 2012, 06:05 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
he has a T in his hand here pretty often when he bets the river

Hope this all makes some sense
Soooo ...... what you're saying is that my hand still had a chance?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Often enough that we cannot check-call this bet.
oh ...




Preamble (mostly me just talking to myself ...)

One of the reasons I stayed at 2nl so long was because I wanted to get good practice folding hands like sets on the river when it was obvious I was beat. And things felt solid enough that I thought I'd be okay moving up ... like I got to this spot where I came to view flopped sets as super solid in that they're generally 70/30 favorites to win by the river it if comes to that, in that they even have redraw possibilities if the board gets wet on the turn - and was also conscious of the fact that 30% of the time they would get outdrawn, and after betting 2 streets of value might require a fold.

And that was okay ... but add in all the other stuff from 5nl that I'm now working on in concert with the folding of big hands, and gosh, somehow the 'plan' totally flew out the window Not sure what happened ... by the river, lol - so funny to see all the stuff that's going through Gareth's mind on the river and then compare it to what was going on in mine, but like I guess I was still thinking about the turn. Thinking about the turn and wishing I had done things differently, and still holding onto the flop where my hand was still good. Also maybe wondering how somebody wound up getting to the river with a T in their range. You know what, by the river I've basically given up ... I've given up on trying to improve my play is what happened, and I regress back to my natural state of being a bit of a station, and I don't wanna let go of my hand



I think sometimes maybe these mistakes get compounded, and so like the mistake on the flop made the turn trickier. And then the mistake on the turn wound up giving rise to the awful river spot ... which never would have happened in the first place if I had played the flop differently at the outset?

Because like maybe sometimes it's harder to fold if you feel like you've screwed up on an earlier street and that takes focus away from the spot you find yourself in on a later street? So hopefully if I can do better next time on the flop (and then the turn), then similar river spots won't be as common?



Flop

So on the flop - if this hand had been heads up instead of multi-way, I'd have definitely check-raised. I guess I chose to donk out instead because of that discomfort I have with multiway pots, and with being out of position - like my hope was that one person would fold and one person would call or raise, so the hand would be heads up, and my equity would improve? But if a check-raise was best, then it sounds like I wound up making things worse instead of better, which just made me even more nervous, so that didn't work out too well lol.


LESSON: Will remember to check-raise next time with such a strong hand on that wet a board where there's only 1 hand that would be ahead



Turn

Okay so then the turn - gosh, by then I was in a bit of a stupor (because of that whole 'gee, that flop didn't turn out the way I had hoped' thing, which got me all distracted :/). I guess I was hoping for more feedback, but maybe oop position and multiway, the risks of having it checked through are just too great, that it's better to just keep going? I guess they couldn't both have been ahead, so if I preferred a thinner field, then raising would have been the way to get rid of draws.


LESSON: So oop, in a multway pot, with a wet board, and 2nd nuts - will remember to prioritize value-betting next time and keep going



River

Hopefully the above two changes next time help to prevent winding up in a similar river spot the next time? And then if I feel like I played the best I could, then at least I should be able to stay focused on the river and find it in me to fold

LESSON: Fold when u are beat


Okay, thanks Gareth!!! I think that helped a lot!!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:45 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Oct 24, 2012, 10:47 PM
(#6)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
Great street-by-street analysis, Sam. As long as you're learning you're on the right track. Good luck out there!!

 
Old
Default
Wed Oct 24, 2012, 11:58 PM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Thx Joy

Lots to learn, ya Am gonna post more hands I think, and get more feedback ... very helpful!!
 
Old
Default
Fri Oct 26, 2012, 10:19 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Note to Self:

LESSON: When out of position with a middling strength hand with sdv that may or may not be good, it's better to bet-fold the river than check-call
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com