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AA - the best hand no matter what?

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AA - the best hand no matter what? - Wed Oct 24, 2012, 04:42 AM
(#1)
Beginner358's Avatar
Since: Oct 2012
Posts: 28
Hi guys,

I was wondering if a pair of Aces is always the best starting hand? Heads-up it's clear but what if I'm up against several opponents?

Thanks
 
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Wed Oct 24, 2012, 04:58 AM
(#2)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,022
(Community Coordinator)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beginner358 View Post
Hi guys,
I was wondering if a pair of Aces is always the best starting hand? Heads-up it's clear but what if I'm up against several opponents?
Thanks
Hi Beginner358,

Welcome to PokerSchoolOnline.

The best starting hand in poker preflop will always be a pair of Aces. Even against the second best starting hand (KK) you will still be an 80% favourite preflop.

Once the flop comes down you will have seen approx 70% of the board and depending on the outcome of the flop, and how many opponents you are facing, you must re-evaluate your hand.

If the flop points to a 'Wet' board, offering straight and flush draws for example, and you are in a multi-way pot then it may be possible that your Aces are no longer as strong as they were preflop.

Raiser


Moderator

Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 06:54 AM
(#3)
Kedan87's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 74
Raiser is absolutely right, AA is the best hand preflop by far Heads up. The worse you will find them in is at 77% vs. 23%.

With that being said your post got me thinking if it was possible for AA to be the dog in a hand preflop, so I had a play with the odds calculator on here. My thoughts were AA gets worse the more people involved in the hand, and small suited connects play best against AA. So I put 9 players all holding the highest pocket pairs, therefore taking AA's outs, and then added 65s. Here's what it came out with

Hand--Win----Tie----Total
AsAc--01.64--16.23--17.87
AdAh--01.38--16.23--17.61
KsKc--00.00--00.08--00.08
KdKh--00.00--00.08--00.08
QsQc--00.00--00.08--00.08
QdQh--00.00--00.08--00.08
JsJc----00.00--00.57--00.57
JdJh----00.02--00.57--00.59
TsTc---26.01--00.08--26.09
6h5h---36.89--00.08--36.97

So it seems it is possible for AA to be the dog preflop, even if it is extremely unlikely. If I ever see this hand come out I think I will quit poker, as by that point I would really have seen it all!
 
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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 08:47 AM
(#4)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kedan87 View Post
Raiser is absolutely right, AA is the best hand preflop by far Heads up. The worse you will find them in is at 77% vs. 23%.

With that being said your post got me thinking if it was possible for AA to be the dog in a hand preflop, so I had a play with the odds calculator on here. My thoughts were AA gets worse the more people involved in the hand, and small suited connects play best against AA. So I put 9 players all holding the highest pocket pairs, therefore taking AA's outs, and then added 65s. Here's what it came out with

Hand--Win----Tie----Total
AsAc--01.64--16.23--17.87
AdAh--01.38--16.23--17.61
KsKc--00.00--00.08--00.08
KdKh--00.00--00.08--00.08
QsQc--00.00--00.08--00.08
QdQh--00.00--00.08--00.08
JsJc----00.00--00.57--00.57
JdJh----00.02--00.57--00.59
TsTc---26.01--00.08--26.09
6h5h---36.89--00.08--36.97

So it seems it is possible for AA to be the dog preflop, even if it is extremely unlikely. If I ever see this hand come out I think I will quit poker, as by that point I would really have seen it all!
There seems to be something wrong with the Odds Calculator you are using....

It gives the two Black Aces as having more chance of winning pre-flop than the two Red Aces.

This on the face of it would appear to be a mistake, there are just as many Black cards in the deck as Red cards so the odds should be exactly the same, unless there is some predisposition for Black cards to be dealt than Red.

Also, would that mean that with As Ac having 01.64 chance of winning and Ah Ad having 01.38 chance, then Ah As : Ad Ac : Ah Ac : Ah As will have 01.51 chance ?

You also have KhKd KsKc : QsQc QdQh : JsJc as having no chance of winning against AA and JdJh as winning 00.02, these hands DO win against AA, I have been on the receiving end on many occassions, both holding AA and being against AA.

I would take the results of your calculator with a pinch of salt.....

 
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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 08:56 AM
(#5)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
There seems to be something wrong with the Odds Calculator you are using....

It gives the two Black Aces as having more chance of winning pre-flop than the two Red Aces.

This on the face of it would appear to be a mistake, there are just as many Black cards in the deck as Red cards so the odds should be exactly the same, unless there is some predisposition for Black cards to be dealt than Red.

Also, would that mean that with As Ac having 01.64 chance of winning and Ah Ad having 01.38 chance, then Ah As : Ad Ac : Ah Ac : Ah As will have 01.51 chance ?

You also have KhKd KsKc : QsQc QdQh : JsJc as having no chance of winning against AA and JdJh as winning 00.02, these hands DO win against AA, I have been on the receiving end on many occassions, both holding AA and being against AA.

I would take the results of your calculator with a pinch of salt.....


Ignore the previous post, I just realised that the odds were for a specific hand at a specific table, but the odds still seem odd for the Black Aces to be better than the Red Aces.

 
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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 10:17 AM
(#6)
Kedan87's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 74
Hi Bill, the odds I've posted have come from the odds calculator here on PSO. And the reason for the red A's winning more than the black is because I've only used the Tc and Ts, the Th and Td are still in the deck giving the red A's more outs for a flush.

I'm not sure if you've got confused as my post is for a 10 way pot, these odds aren't for heads up. So the reason the K's and Q's can never win is because the A high flushes will always beat them if 4 of the same suit comes out, and all the A's, K's, Q's and J's are taken leaving no possible way or getting straights or trips.

Hope that clears it up

Last edited by Kedan87; Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 10:22 AM..
 
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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 01:49 PM
(#7)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,506
I was a little confused at first, hence the Ignore post. But the Black AA in your post still has better odds than the Red. You used TsTc so Red should be slightly better not Black.

 
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Fri Oct 26, 2012, 06:04 AM
(#8)
Kedan87's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 74
That is strange, I've just put that hand in again and it came out with the same results. I'm using the odds calculator on this site http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/articles/Oddscalc

If you have PokerStove maybe you could put the same hand in there and see what that comes out with. All I can think of is that the 6h5h would mean less outs for the red aces, but then the TsTc should counter act this. Either the odds calculator on this website is slightly off or there's something we're missing.
 
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Fri Oct 26, 2012, 05:37 PM
(#9)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
I think it's because the 5h isn't available for a straight flush, so the black aces have an extra way to make a straight flush. I got pretty much the same results in Pokerstove.

When I put the other pair of tens into the equation, both ace pairs jumped to 48.075% equity, the kings queens and jacks had 0.144%, and the tens 1.494% (presumably due to the extra str8 possibilities).

Funny how the odds work out sometimes.

 
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Fri Oct 26, 2012, 06:20 PM
(#10)
Kedan87's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 74
There we go, that makes sense. Good spot on the straight flush Joy
 

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