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5nl 6-max Zoom AKs Deep-Stacked with the Nuts versus 2nd Nuts - Bet Sizing?

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5nl 6-max Zoom AKs Deep-Stacked with the Nuts versus 2nd Nuts - Bet Sizing? - Thu Oct 25, 2012, 12:14 AM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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I usually try to cash out and buy back in sometime before hitting 200bb's, since I have that little finding the fold button every once in a while

So then ... today I didn't realize my stack had gotten so big, and found myself in this hand and didn't know what to do with this stack against a deeper stack, who I put on a straight.



I was scared they might fold Because sometimes you'd be surprised at how sharp people can be at 5nl ... for example here the villain appears to have folded the nut flush?

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=B142EAB6D4


When we're deepstacked (like ~200bb), how do we get all the money in by the river? All I'm used to are 100bb stacks, and look what I wound up with at showdown - around 90bbs :/

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 12:20 AM..
 
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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 02:25 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
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Hi Sam

To get all the money in this deep stacked in a single raised pot, you'll need more than 3 post flop betting rounds and usually as many as 5 depending on bet sizing. Here you had 4 betting rounds (the regular 3 plus a raise on the flop). The ideal way to set up stacks here would be to raise the turn, which essentially gives you the 5th betting round if the villain is willing to continue (that's the other factor, the villain has to be willing to stack off too). I think in this spot a turn raise is definitely nice, as the villain does rate to be very strong in this spot... QJ certainly is possible, and so are AT and TT, and I think none of those are folding to a turn raise. They may actually misread the situation and get it in right there on the turn when you raise, thinking you may have AQ or AJ. And the full houses can think you have QJ yourself and want to get it in. AT can put you on KK. Any time you have the nuts and the opponent figures to have a strong 2nd best hand, try to determine how many large bets (3/4 pot to maybe even overbets) it will take to get all the money in and then take a line to try and accomplish that goal. Definitely difficult to do 200 bbs deep in a single raised pot.


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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 07:21 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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Hey, thx Dave!!!


Ahhh ... I could swear, like 95% of my hands are small-ball type, $2 or less sort of a deal. And then, every 50,000 hands or so, I'll have a prolonged downswing ... or a prolonged heater like I am now. Where:

1. I make the nuts ... not just 2nd nuts where you have to worry about whether you're even good when the betting gets heated,

2. I make the absolute nuts, and earlier than the river - so there's no worries whatsoever of getting drawn out on, and

3. The opponent makes an unusually strong hand, so there's the potential there to play for stacks.

So these situations of trying to maximize value don't seem to come around too often ... hence the excitement/hesitancy/nerves I guess And lack of experience too


That's an awesome rule of thumb!!! That helps a lot - that there need to be 5 rounds of betting. So flop was one, and then if I had added another on the turn, the pot would be that much bigger for the river.


Like, even a reraise to $1.50 would have made a nice little difference, eh? Lemme see here:

Actual Hand

Turn: $2.02 in the pot
bb raises - $0.95
I called - $0.95

River: $3.92 in the pot
I raise - $2.90
bb calls - $2.90

Showdown: $9.73 in the pot


Alternative (Better) Line

Turn: $2.02 in the pot
bb raises - $0.95
I reraise - $2.20 ($6.20 left behind)
bb calls - $1.15

River: $6.42 in the pot
I raise - $4.24
bb calls - $4.24

Showdown: $14.90


So even a tiny reraise, with the compounding, really jacked up the pot there ... darn, what a lost opportunity


Best Alternative Line of All

Turn: $2.02 in the pot
bb raises - $0.95
I reraise - $2.50 ($5.90 left behind)
bb calls - $1.55

River: $7.02 in the pot
I raise - $5.25 (75%)
bb (hopefully) calls? - $5.25

Showdown: $17.52 ()


What a HUGE difference reraising the turn would have made ... from $9.73 to $17.52 It really kind of creeps up on you with the compounding that way - like good if we're ahead ... and something to be wary of when we suspect we might be behind too, eh?

And, something I failed to notice that Gareth's mentioned in Live Training before is to be wary of draws - not because there's a danger of getting outdrawn, but because there's a danger one will come in that might kill our action. So that's another reason I guess to not pass up an opportunity to try and get more in the middle ASAP?


I didn't mean to not show the villain's cards, but the bb had QJo - I keep calling big hands the 2nd nuts, but technically it was like the 4th or 5th or 12th or whatever But hopefully people know what I mean - like it was on the weaker end of all the possible big hands, but like I struggle with letting go of straights or better, even on massively wet boards like the one that we had at showdown. Especially if the raising is smallish. And there's quite a few people at 5nl who seem to struggle with that too - like there seem to be WAY more of us who would call, than there are people like the person in the hand above with the nut flush, who are capable of folding? So maybe at this stake, it's definitely more EV to be going for that reraise I think?

Hopefully I get the chance for a redo before my heater takes a turn and I find myself in the villain's shoes, and have to instead try to get to the river as cheaply as possible or even fold ... probably fold ...


Anyways ... thx Dave!!! Helps a lot!!!
 
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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 07:49 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Hi Sam,

Yes, all right on. And absolutely right about drawing boards, I stress this all the time in my classes too as another reason to play flopped nuts fast on the flop... in particular this comes up when you flop the nut straight or the nut flush... try and instigate the action right away in those spots, as a 4th straight card or 4th of the suit can kill your action.

I figured the villain probably had QJ, since he check-called the 3rd club on the river... QJ is scared of the flush possibility while a full house is not and probably bets again... the club sort of conspired against your effort here as well in that way, if the river is a blank he probably bets the straight again allowing you to raise the river.


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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 09:17 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Some great ideas here - I hope I can remember to keep trying to incorporate them into my game until they become more ingrained. Because, like I guess the reason these issues haven't come up yet is because:

1. I rarely play more than 100bb's - so instinctively I must have known that the 3bet on the flop was already enough to get stacks in by the river? And,

2. Everybody at 5nl plays just like me - so even though I make a lot of stationey calls on the river, so does everybody else! Hence, the lack of imperative to push the action before a 'scare' card hurt my chances of getting all 100bb's into the middle ... like, chances are still usually good they'll call (as I would )

But I want to work on changing my turn play, because it feels like maybe that missed opportunity on the turn could very well be the difference between being a winning and a losing player up at 10nl? So better to work on it now, eh?


I just had a hand that's more typical of the ones I usually get ... flopped a strong hand, but not the nuts. And didn't need to raise so big on the turn to get it in on the river ... so long as the river was a safe card. I guess one reason to make the raise smaller on the turn if that's an option would be to better ensure a call from a lesser hand. But look what came up on the river - a scare card! So in this instance, by raising the turn by just a little, I was still able to get a call - and get the other person to stack off on the river - with a really weak holding.




If I hadn't changed my turn raising, which bloated up the pot, I'm not even sure the villain would have felt committed enough on the river with 4-to-a-boat to have called any amount this time, because this river card was REALLY scary. So that was wonderful, to be able to get their whole stack!!

On the other hand, I can just imagine that if I start bloating up pots on the turn with the non-nuts, and a scare card comes on the river that works against me, there's gonna come a time where it'll be obvious that I'm beat, and ... like that feeling that there's only a little extra left to call, I could see that totally working against me too :/ Like, I guess if I start pumping up pots before the action's complete, I'll also need to work even harder on being able to let go of hands that clearly aren't good ... to avoid needless spew.


Oh well ... always so much to learn, so I guess it's always a work in progress. Will just keep trying to do my best, and keep coming back to HA for more help as need be!!


Okay thx Dave!!! Very helpful!!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 09:23 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 09:36 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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And ... here's one where overbetting the turn probably cost me:



Important not to overdo it either - like the raise-folder could have had just a pair, which was no danger to my straight at all. So I probably lost value there.


Such a fine line ... will have to practice learning not to underdo things, but not to overdo them either.

Will see how it goes
 
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Thu Oct 25, 2012, 10:32 PM
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Stakehorse75's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 865
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at the same time, he could have had 2 clubs or 2 diamonds. I say good bet sir.



 
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Sun Nov 11, 2012, 09:57 AM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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note to self

LESSON: To get all the money in by the river with 200bb stacks, there needs to be 5 streets of betting in addition to the pre-flop raises (flop, turn, river, as well as 2 reraises somewhere along the line).

It's oftentimes easier to get things in on the turn before a scare card comes on the river.
 

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