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I will NEVER use software again.

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I will NEVER use software again. - Thu Nov 01, 2012, 02:49 PM
(#1)
TheYettii's Avatar
Since: Oct 2012
Posts: 7
BronzeStar
I took the advice I kept reading about using PT4 or HM2 to improve my game and plug leaks. For 2 months I used up the trial time, and you know what?

MY GAME TANKED.

I found that the stats were very misleading, and they also distracted me from what was going in any given hand. I would keep looking at the stats thinking "He folds so often on the c-bet and turn bet, so I'll play some stop'n'go and take the pot" OR... "His aggression and 3-bet percentage ratings are so high, he must be bluffing a lot."

Guess what? Thinking like that DOESN'T WORK.

If you are paying too much attention to the stats, you begin ignoring what is happening at the table. Furthermore, over a period of many hands, the stats flatten out and don't tell the whole story unless you reset them. Then the problem becomes having too small a window to accurately ascertain the type of player you are dealing with.

GET RID OF THAT SOFTWARE. Go Back to playing the game hand by hand, and your win rate will skyrocket. I can always tell when I'm playing someone with software, especially if I've been at a cash table for hours, or in the mid stage of a big tourney. I'll bluff at a pot where I KNOW the villian has top pair and a string kicker. I can tell he's looking at my VPIP thinking "Well... He's only playing 13% of his hands, he's gotta have two pair or a set."

Then they fold... Most times in these situations I have complete air or a longshot semi-bluff.

I take EXTREME advantage of players that run software by changing gears and messing around with what their HUD is telling them about me. I keep a quick eye on my stats using the tab in the chat window, so I know when it is a good time to change my play. It's all I need... Nothing more, nothing less.

Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but my game got leaps and bounds superior once I got rid of the crutch.

Trust yourself, read all the advice and strategy you can get your hands on, apply it and bet like you mean it without hee-hawwing your entire stack onto the felt every time you get in a hand. You'll get far more respect folding to a 3 or 4 bet after you've raised preflop than you will going all in with QQ and winning. That kind of game is so transparent, and players will adjust and crush you without you realizing what happened.

You'll do just fine, stop running software and just PLAY THE GAME.
 
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Thu Nov 01, 2012, 06:57 PM
(#2)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
well said
 
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Fri Nov 02, 2012, 06:08 PM
(#3)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I'm someone like you, I struggled with HEM2 for a year and in fact, put me on tilt. I've documented it well in a few posts on this forum and one on 2p2. I finished 7th on the Mercury leaderboard playing without a HUD on my mobile phone ( got me into a freeroll worth $100k and why I done it).

I play STTs and MTTs, I also play Limit games. Stats that apply to NL are no good in Limit. Stats are merged with NL games and are confusing. Blind level v's number of players in a STT require a different level of thinking. I don't think a HUD is very good for this unless you configure it to change as the blinds change or the players thin.

In saying this I can't do without a HUD or HEM2.

For starters I have an almost instant read on the players at any STT I play (it takes a hand to kick in). I know straight away who the calling and raising stations are. Before it took me 10 hands at a table to work this out.

Secondly, and a very important part, it displays what everyone had at the end of a hand without me having to dig into hand histories. Before I had to dig into hand histories to work out a players game.

Thirdly, it helps me look at my own game. In limit STTs I look at each time I win or lose big and ask myself could I play it differently.

Fourthly, it helps me look at my opponents game. I can check what hands they raise or call with and work out a strategy to beat them.

-------------

I still make loads of mistakes but I'm profitable (13% ROI in 6,000 STTs) and I now swear by HEM2. HEM hasn't instantaneously made me profitable but it has helped my game.

My advice is use a HUD running but use them for an overall feel of the player. Play the game but don't go into too much detail.
 
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Sat Nov 03, 2012, 04:24 PM
(#4)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
You're focusing too much on the HUD itself instead of,at least in my opinion and the opinion of most who do use HUDs (I only have for the PT3 free trial myself) the most beneficial aspect of the software---the endless options to do post session analysis of YOUR play.

You can literally break down what your doing,or not doing,in any situation,with any 2 cards and from any position and against any type of action,once you build up a decent amount of hands. This feature alone is considered to be well worth the investment as everyone I know who has used these features of the software (and known HOW to fully utilize them) has been able to identify leaks in their game that they were unaware of in most cases. That alone is a feature that is nearly limitless in value.

As for the stats that are available to one at the table during actual play...meh. It can and does have value if you work with it and concentrate on learning how to best utilize these stats. But nothing can ever replace our own reads (provided we know how to acquire them and identify solid reads) and if one has their nose in their HUD,instead of paying attention to what is happening on the table(s) around them,well then yes,they are being ill served by running the software.

Personally I would never even think of using any stats from a HUD display with any real confidence until I had at least 250 hands on a player. And that would be my bare minimum. I would much rather,again,rely on getting more pertinent and narrowly focused information from my own observations (how a player plays at the bubble in an SNG/MTT for instance). Cash games the stats are more status quo as there are no bubble,FT,early stage and the like considerations---so like I said,for me I would want AT LEAST 250 hands of info on that HUD before I pay any real attention to what it's telling me.

For anyone who hasn't yet tried one out for a test drive I strongly suggest you watch Dave's (TheLangolier) excellent video on proper utilization of a HUD and all it has to offer. His session in on using HEM,but so many of the features are the same as PT that it will easily translate.
 
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Sat Nov 03, 2012, 06:30 PM
(#5)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
I haven't tried these software programs, but based on this thread, I can see some of the advantages and disadvantages. The biggest being too much reliance on the data and the information needed for self-review respectively.
 
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Sat Nov 03, 2012, 08:58 PM
(#6)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheYettii View Post
I took the advice I kept reading about using PT4 or HM2 to improve my game and plug leaksDid you use the inbuild leak buster for this, i found it very usful. For 2 months I used up the trial time, and you know what?

MY GAME TANKED.

I found that the stats were very misleadingin what way?, and they also distracted me from what was going in any given handPersonally i use the stats to colour code the villians which at my low low level is great as i don't play against the worlds best, but i see you are a gold star so maybe playing higher levels with players who are actually reading the table too. yes then raw stats can be misleading . I would keep looking at the stats thinking "He folds so often on the c-bet and turn bet, so I'll play some stop'n'go and take the pot" OR... "His aggression and 3-bet percentage ratings are so high, he must be bluffing a lot." I always play my hand first (thank you dave) and fancy think second

Guess what? Thinking like that DOESN'T WORK.we will agree to disagree, it doesn't work for you.

If you are paying too much attention to the stats, you begin ignoring what is happening at the table. but arn't stats whats ahappening at the table? there is a button to show current table stats onlyFurthermore, over a period of many hands, the stats flatten out and don't tell the whole story unless you reset them. Then the problem becomes having too small a window to accurately ascertain the type of player you are dealing with.
colour coding is your friend here
GET RID OF THAT SOFTWARE.never Go Back to playing the game hand by hand,i still do and your win rate will skyrocket.hmm so every one with out software is a winner?
I can always tell when I'm playing someone with software, especially if I've been at a cash table for hours, i will say no you can tell those who have software and dont actually use it wellor in the mid stage of a big tourney. I'll bluff at a pot where I KNOW the villian has top pair and a string kicker. I can tell he's looking at my VPIP thinking "Well... He's only playing 13% of his hands, he's gotta have two pair or a set."

Then they fold... Most times in these situations I have complete air or a longshot semi-bluff.

I take EXTREME advantage of players that run software by changing gears and messing around with what their HUD is telling them about me.SOP for any poker I keep a quick eye on my stats using the tab in the chat window,so you use stats but dont like programs that use stats ....ok so i'm drunk but is something about this not right? so I know when it is a good time to change my play. It's all I need... Nothing more, nothing less.

Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but my game got leaps and bounds superior once I got rid of the crutch.

Trust yourself, read all the advice and strategy you can get your hands on, apply it and bet like you mean it without hee-hawwing your entire stack onto the felt every time you get in a hand. You'll get far more respect folding to a 3 or 4 bet after you've raised preflop than you will going all in with QQ and winning. That kind of game is so transparent, and players will adjust and crush you without you realizing what happened.

You'll do just fine, stop running software and just PLAY THE GAME.
it has been said befor but i use the soft ware 20 % to look at stats at my table and 80% to look at my own stats and reply hands after the fact


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Nov 06, 2012, 01:55 AM
(#7)
TheYettii's Avatar
Since: Oct 2012
Posts: 7
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
it has been said befor but i use the soft ware 20 % to look at stats at my table and 80% to look at my own stats and reply hands after the fact
I did use the built in leak buster, and it did have some value... I also thought that it was a little bit of a cookie cutter approach to playing poker, making everyone play the same type of game. If you could set the filter to analyze your play as a LAG, or TAG, or ABC, then maybe it would hold more value for me. There were times the software told me I was making a proper percentage of steals from the SB and folding too often from the SB in the same analysis... What the hell does that mean? I lost faith in it at that point.

Yes, as was mentioned in earlier posts, I do find SOME value in viewing my own stats, but I find alomst zero value in viewing my opponent's stats. Any poker player that is break-even or better understands the concept of changing up playing style frequently to keep others off balance. This alone doesn't justify the cost of the software to me, especially when those stats are at my disposal and built into this site already.

To each their own..Perhaps I'll revisit it one day and learn to use it to my advantage. For now, I play a much better game without it.

Last edited by TheYettii; Tue Nov 06, 2012 at 03:59 AM.. Reason: spelling
 
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Wed Nov 07, 2012, 10:30 PM
(#8)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
As you say to each his own. A very important point there.

Ye syou need to value the software and know why you are using it, Having read your posts you are able to read the tables well and adjust, PT$ or HM2 are tools they can assist but the canot think for us.

Have to be honest i did not pay for mine to start got it on one of the free trials (deposit x and play z hands).

I love it on zoom, where i am not reading the table so well but after 30 hands (the min i set in the software) I can get a feel of players. Yes the thinking player has me foxed if i only go with the softwear but at the micros where i play there i are too many other types of players for me not to profit (when i pay attention , before you guy say it)

In conclusion to each his own, some of us need the help some of us find it distracting....thank heavens they offer a trail so we can see if it works for us.


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:34 PM
(#9)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Try using them as an aid for BASIC information more than anything

The more skill you have, the more I think those values have importance. The kind of player that can reel off the odds of every type of hand combination against any other without blinking or stopping for breath is going to like the detail on some HUDS because he can use it to really read people.

For me , i ignore the 3Bet, Cbet, fold to Cbet etc. To me that is important yes but not vital to how i play. The one key thing i use is how often they are in the flop. If the VP (as it shows on Poker Tracker for me) shows someone is in it less than 20%, i put a big red label around them. If it is 20-35%, i put a big orange label around them. If it is higher than that the label is green with blue reserved for people i havent got enough data on (only just joined the table) and purple for sitters.

This way if i encounter them again either later in the torny or on another day, Pokerstars knows to remind me how they play.

This means that for very tight players i can often steal their blinds without worry or bet over them to get to a weaker player. With very loose players I want to make sure that when i am in hand with them i know that they are a double edged sword. Chances are they will come in for any hand and since i know my TAG range, if the board hits me well, chances are it didnt hit them as well. I can use this and with various different other reads through the hand i play with them, I can see how easy it is in that spot to bluff at them or take some value from them.... whilst also being wary that my AQ on a A 6 3 board could well be in trouble vs A 6 for two pair since "Any Ace" is a popular motto for the more weaker of players.

In summary - dont dismiss the hud completely but dont bother with information that isnt helping you. Try to focus on the one thing that you can miss without it, how often they are in the hand.
 

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