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5nl 6max zoom - AQ with a 9TJ flop with flush draw - CBET? Pt 1

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5nl 6max zoom - AQ with a 9TJds flop - CBET? Pt 1 - Fri Nov 02, 2012, 04:45 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Oh ... somebody's been reorganizing stuff in the Forum again, eh? :/

EDIT: Tried changing the title, but it wouldn't change - I didn't have a flush draw ...
EDIT2: Not sure my raise on the flop even counts as a cbet, since I wasn't the pre-flop raiser? I guess I just mean a 'raise' ... or is it a 'bet'? Oh whatever ... the other hand is a cbet for sure


Anyways ... my flop cbet stat has been creeping upwards lately (like it's gotten higher than 75% And my flop cbet stat success rate has been creeping downwards at the same rate ... hehe

I'm not sure if cbetting with hands like these - on flops like these - are *one* of the culprits? Because like I've heard that this is one of those flops that we're supposed to be cautious about cbetting with - but is that just for when we don't have draws/overs? Or are draws/overs still not good enough when we could already be so far behind?

Like in general, how strong a hand should we try to have before considering cbetting in this sort of situation?



My equity ... yikes! :/ :

UTG shows (Three of a Kind, Nines) (Pre 37%, Flop 31%, Turn 19%)
MP shows (Straight, King High) (Pre 22%, Flop 59%, Turn 76%)
Hero mucks (Three of a Kind, Nines) (Pre 41%, Flop 10%, Turn 5%)


Second Hand: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...046#post372046

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Nov 02, 2012 at 08:53 PM..
 
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Fri Nov 02, 2012, 10:46 PM
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Oh ... now that I look at my own hand, I remember why this flop's so bad ...

So, we're not supposed to cbet because there's so oftentimes zero fold equity, right?

And the whole point of cbetting is to try to get people (with worse?) to fold?

So ...

1) I had no made hand (on a flop that connects well with a lot of peoples ranges), and
2) I had no fold equity (only worse were likely to fold)


And then also,

3) I had very little actual equity too - I had the top end of an open ender, but some of my outs might not have been good like
- the 8 or K of hearts (if somebody else was on a flush draw)
- all Q's if somebody was holding a K (assuming they weren't already holding KQ, which one of them was here), Q8/78, or 99/TT/JJ or 2pr ... as well as QQ, KK or AA ... eep! :/
- the A, if utg was holding AK (perhaps with a flush draw), or anybody had A9, AT, AJ


I guess the AQ only looked good, eh? Yikes :/

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Nov 03, 2012 at 02:01 PM.. Reason: oops - some of those hands I listed were off :D
 
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Sat Nov 03, 2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Like in general, how strong a hand should we try to have before considering cbetting in this sort of situation?

What about cbetting with these sorts of hands (assuming no reads) ... good/bad idea? What about calling if faced with a reraise?

AJ - oop in a multiway pot

9Ts - on like a board?

JQ (no flush draw) - too risky that an 8 might come and that somebody might already have KQ?

A8s (flush draw) - plus the lower end of the open-ender? (Oh ... I just noticed my opponent in the hand I just posted had this hand ... I guess this one's pretty strong, eh?)

.
.
.

And then on the other end of the spectrum ... one time I actually did flop a straight, but was surprised to find my equity wasn't that spectacular

(I can't find the hand I was looking for - the person had TP and an open-ended straight flush draw to my straight and we were practically flipping. Anyways, here's another hand where I flopped a straight ...)



Are those two sorts of flops pretty much the only ones we should be going nuts over, or is that being too cautious? Like if somebody's itching to play for stacks - what if we have a set?


EDIT: Oh, found it ... all the players that I had stats on at the table were tight, but I didn't have stats on the person to my left - who called :/


Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Nov 03, 2012 at 02:53 PM.. Reason: oh ... one of my examples was too confusing :o
 
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Sat Nov 03, 2012, 06:34 PM
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GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey TrustySam

It looks like you are answering some of your own questions

Makes things easier for me I will go back to napping

Just kidding. I think in the AQ hand you correctly recognized a great spot to check back. I think this is a situation where the EV of c-betting is pretty unclear. But the EV of checking back is +++.

I did the other hand before this one but the reasons are basically the same, esp now that we have two villains. Low fold equity, not value betting (yet), and incentive to see future cards.

The 89 and KT hands I am not sure what your question is exactly. So maybe you can read the other thread and this one and then ask me to be more specific. But we should definitely be 'going crazy' with the nut straight in both of these spots and not let up the gas . Big bet and raise sizes are key here to get max value, move the action, and charge drawing hands the biggest price
 
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Sat Nov 03, 2012, 09:02 PM
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i totally lifted my 'answer' from all the stuff you've posted in HA - I just reworded it lols

eg

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Fold equity is really going to dictate whether you want to play your draws fast (betting and raising, even re-raising) or slow (calling and if necessary, folding).

When your opponent folds a certain amount of the time, betting and raising your draws make more sense: you can win when they fold or when they call and you hit.

When your opponent doesn't fold often, if at all, you can only win when you hit, and he might raise you off your draw as well.

... for this reason I would not raise the flop, I don't expect my opponent to bet a QJ9 flop and fold to a raise very often.

No wonder my 'answer' sounded so good!!

The only thing is that it took me *six hours* to recognize that you'd already told me how to play a flop like this - with a different hand - but that the concept still applied. Guess if I can shave that time down by about ... oh ... like a hundred-thousand-fold so that I'm actually remembering how to play hands AS they're happening, I ought to be able to *crush* 5nl! ... which means I'll probably be back asking the same question about 20 more times before it sinks in


D'oh!!


Now that I look back at the answer u gave me *before*, I guess the thing to remember is that a suited and connected flop in the mid-range of like 8 to Q you need to hit pretty strong and be betting for value only pretty much?

I think (hope) i should be able to remember that So hopefully I don't have to ask the same question a 3rd time lol. Thx Gareth!! Will continue my answer in the other thread


PS Oh those two other hands - I think I was just sort of talking to myself trying to sort things out? Like I was looking at the other peoples' hands as examples of non-straight hands that would still be in good shape against a straight I guess? Oh, I don't know ... I don't remember ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Nov 03, 2012 at 09:08 PM..
 
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Sun Nov 04, 2012, 11:11 AM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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note to self

HYPOTHESIS: On those middling suited/connected boards like 9TJ double-suited, try to have as many as the following as possible before stacking off on the flop - set/straight-draw/flush-draw ... preferably at least 2. A pair or just an open-ended straight draw plus overs might not be enough?

check back later ...
 
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Mon Nov 05, 2012, 11:03 AM
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GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
yeah I think you are on the right track here. On flops like QJT where there are three potential straights, 89, K9, AK, I like to pot control KQ type hands and even JT/TT type hands. TT for example is doing ok v 89/K9/AK but is still a dog, while it is crushed by the JJ/QQ. With KQ I really want to get value from worse pair+draw hands like KJ and T9 so because those hands can't take alot of heat I don't want to apply a lot of heat!
 
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Sun Nov 11, 2012, 08:46 PM
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oh ... bwa haha!

In my mind I guess I thought I was just talking to myself even though I posted my thoughts. But then Gareth answered


Okay, so on like a board, hands like the following might tend to be more middling in strength (depending on the opponents):

- JT (bottom 2pr)
- TT (bottom set)
- KQ (TP and open ender)


And therefore it's best to pot control because:

1. The hand might be behind one of 3 possible straights, or 2 possible better sets, and

2. The hands that it's ahead of aren't likely to be willing to call big raises anyways.


Okay, that's great Gareth!!! Thx!!!
 
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Sun Nov 11, 2012, 11:22 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
note to self

HYPOTHESIS: On those middling suited/connected boards like 9TJ double-suited, try to have as many as the following as possible before stacking off on the flop - set/straight-draw/flush-draw ... preferably at least 2. A pair or just an open-ended straight draw plus overs might not be enough?

check back later ...
A follow-up of a multiway pot with a draw-heavy flop that three of us were interested in getting all the chips in the middle with:



Click to show hidden text



Will post more for comparison purposes as I see them!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 11:33 PM..
 

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