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DEBATE - ITM vs 1ST place.....

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DEBATE - ITM vs 1ST place..... - Thu Nov 08, 2012, 01:59 AM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi all, I would like to debate about itm vs 1st place. And hope all will share their views on this subject.

My reason, tonight I was playing well and chipped up close to itm in the 1.5k gauranteed.

I sat with AK in my hand faced by a min raiser and the blinds were increasing.

Now if I had wanted too, I could of easily drifted to the top 100-200 players left.

However my decission was to go all in, to try and become one of the cheap leaders giving my self a chance at winning first place.
This in fact was the wrong decission at the time as I lost and missed the itm.

But now i have sat back and thought about it was it the wrong decission to go for first?

I know I can play good enough regular to itm and grind up a tidy BR.

SO as to the question itm vs 1st place your views please.
 
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Thu Nov 08, 2012, 03:27 AM
(#2)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hey holdemace

Why don't you present us with the math. What did 1st place payout and what was a mincash? First in an MTT usually covers a pretty huge pile of mincashes!

That being said, if I had an decent stack, I wouldn't have been jamming AK pre flop on a flip, especially on the bubble.

GL!

Roland GTX
 
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Thu Nov 08, 2012, 03:59 AM
(#3)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi greg, I think you missed the point of the debate question some where, it was not on the bubble posistion but getting close to clarify that part.


I find that if short stacked in the itm posistions, you will get called by dominating stacks.

Sometimes multiple dominating stacks will call you often with worse but lessening your chances of winning the all in.

ITMS are not that hard to grind out, but coming first place is.

I often see players with huge stacks as im grinding to make itm, so is not preferable to go for it as such at an earlier stage. Lets say somewhere in the middle section of a tournement or 2 3rds?


Or should players be happy with making itm as that is not a loss and can soon become a tidy amount of BR?

MY decission was to go for it, i put myself on two overs and took a gamble, he had qq which i pretty much expected.

IF i had hit my hand maybe I would of been seen the final table!

People who win these tourneys must go for it some where at some stage?
 
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Thu Nov 08, 2012, 05:50 AM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
I just look for good ev+ spots to play. I don't stress about having a "big stack" in tourneys. Yes, it is nice to have, but it is not a goal in itself. I do get stressed when my stack drops below 50% of the average stack size though. Then I am more willing to gamble on doubling up.

FYI, in the MTT that I won, I had an average or short stack pretty much the whole tourney (3000 entrants and a turbo). With 50 players remaining I was in 46th place! I didn't get a big stack until we were down to the final 4 players and I knocked out two of them becoming chip leader going into HU play.

Roland GTX
 
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grrr - Thu Nov 08, 2012, 06:51 AM
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holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=9B2A29D093

this is an hand im talking about for example, this happened no more than 5 mins ago.

2 people from itm,grrr how many times as this got to happen before i win one.

Any way, no one folding here right? no way.

Like i said im always ahead but some how always seem to lose when it counts.

And people wonder why i question integrity at times.

But never the less i will not stress over it, i guess i had my spider senses turned off.

its was a 1k gauranteed with lots of runners 55 c buyin.

SO i see itm in this one for example as probably 1 doller, so do i waste that AK oppurtunity?
 
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Thu Nov 08, 2012, 07:04 AM
(#6)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
And yes greg i have come back from low stack a few times, and well done on a mtt win they are not easy.

And yes +ev is important.

When i want to play for just itm posistions im happy to stay at the tail end all the way as long as i have got enough BBs to keep going.
 
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Thu Nov 08, 2012, 07:19 AM
(#7)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Min-raising into a deep stacked bb and several other deep stacks still to act, while you are getting short AND in early positon is just asking for trouble imo.

I would have just pushed all in preflop. The pot is unopened giving you first in vig. You seem to be under the average stack size and there are several big stacks left to act. I can't see myself raising 10%-20% of my stack and then folding. So, get max fold equity and max value if you get called by getting it all in there.

GL holdemace!

Roland GTX
 
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Thu Nov 08, 2012, 10:03 AM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
SO as to the question itm vs 1st place your views please.
Neither. My answer... + ROI. The ROI IS the bottom line. It's what matters.

Players that continually min-cash will be behind in the long run.... players that play like a maniac and get lucky and win one (and bust early the overwhelming majority of the time) will also be behind in the long run. Neither style will be a winning player over time.

The key is consistant deep runs.

John (JWK24)


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Thu Nov 08, 2012, 02:39 PM
(#9)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hmmmm jw, interesting, so you are saying dont worry about min itm, dont worry about winning.

Worry more about surving the longest if i can put it that way?

And for the record the beats are expected, using good BR management, well some BR management keeps you in a healthy BR.

That was a beat, but not really a bad beat, and that was after winning about ten dollers on the 1c 2c cash, so was a free tourney as such.

And yes roland i did think about pushing pre-flop, but considered i did have fold equaity if i missed the flop.

Last edited by holdemace486; Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:40 PM.. Reason: typo cant remember how spell surviving?
 
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Fri Nov 09, 2012, 12:46 AM
(#10)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Hi all, I would like to debate about itm vs 1st place. And hope all will share their views on this subject.

My reason, tonight I was playing well and chipped up close to itm in the 1.5k gauranteed.

I sat with AK in my hand faced by a min raiser and the blinds were increasing.

Now if I had wanted too, I could of easily drifted to the top 100-200 players left.

However my decission was to go all in, to try and become one of the cheap leaders giving my self a chance at winning first place.
This in fact was the wrong decission at the time as I lost and missed the itm.

But now i have sat back and thought about it was it the wrong decission to go for first?

I know I can play good enough regular to itm and grind up a tidy BR.

SO as to the question itm vs 1st place your views please.

It can change in any individual tourney due to structure of the pay outs.

But as a general rule of thumb MTT's are meant to be shipped. So if it comes down to taking a sensible risk that may knock me out of a min-cash for a shot to get a big bunch of chips to set me up for a FT run then I'm pretty much taking that risk every time.

This doesn't mean one should be cavalier about risking min-cashes near the bubble and every MTT we play is it's own creature and we have to react to the realities of the situation. There's sensible risk and there's being a lunkhead.

Instead of looking at it on a one by one tourney level I would suggest that you get results for at least a couple hundred MTT's. If you see that you're making it in the money at a clip over 25% but are still underwater on your ROI then you're obviously holding on too tight and over emphasizing min-cashing.
 
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Fri Nov 09, 2012, 01:25 AM
(#11)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
what do you mean by 25%, does that mean 25% my initail buyin?
profit.

AND yes moxie you hit it spot on, im to cavalier at times that does cost me . Great stuff again mox tyvm
 
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Fri Nov 09, 2012, 01:32 AM
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Fri Nov 09, 2012, 01:38 AM
(#13)
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Posts: 1,760
thx for the link dave going read it now, just finished off in a second place lol in 45ppl sng while reading and posting on here lol.

Inspired again to try to do well ty all
 
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Fri Nov 09, 2012, 02:05 AM
(#14)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
I must of mist that post Dave, very impressing reading and some great points that says it all.

However some more to add for your great thoughts.

What about a player who grinds, i dont just mean grinding the tables but also grinding a BR.

Lets say I min cash in a mtt at lets say 75c profit.

That 75c I then wisely play 3 25c sngs cashing in lets say 2 of them.

I then still have my initail mtt buyin plus i have accumilated from the sngs.

I then lets say have 1.60 for example

i then buyin for 80 c and double up and leave on a 1c 2c cash game.

Winning bits but gradually boosting my BR.

I agree totally of as late, if you want to win big and get them first places you have to take calculated risks as i feel i have been doing.

Sometimes a min itm is better than nothing.

I agree that the winning players who have big wins will have a lower itm than the itm grinders.

But also think that grinding a BR as well can lead to a decent profit as i have done a few times.

Maybe its a question about how much BR you can afford and can you afford to take them risks.

If for example its your last buyin maybe an itm would do.

Either way I have read some absolute great knowledge tonight and appreciate it all.

P>S if my post is a bit mixed up forgive me its 7 am here lol
 
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Fri Nov 09, 2012, 10:05 AM
(#15)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
itm grinders.
I really don't think you get it ace. "Grinding" implies someone who is mashing out a profit over volume. Someone who is "grinding itm" in large field mtt's is a losing player. Did you catch the part in my blog where I found a player who was ITM in large field events a whopping half the time? If you're going to call anyone an "itm grinder" it would be that player, and yet they were losing money. That's what -ROI means.

Quote:
If for example its your last buyin maybe an itm would do.
Of course, if you don't cash you're bust. Then again putting your case money, 100% of your bankroll on a single buy in large field mtt is foolish, no?

If you are a min-cash grinder, then don't play large field MTT's because you will always be a long term loser at them. Play small fields where min-cashing is rewarded more... 9 mans-45 mans at most imo. For large fields play satellites, where everyone gets the same prize and you don't have to play to win. And play some form of cash games, where once you learn how to be a winning player the profit is more steady and variance lower than the large swings that come with big field mtt action.


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Fri Nov 09, 2012, 03:49 PM
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Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
what do you mean by 25%, does that mean 25% my initail buyin?
profit.

AND yes moxie you hit it spot on, im to cavalier at times that does cost me . Great stuff again mox tyvm
25% ITM means In The Money...in other words you make the money 1 of every 4 MTT's you play. Obviously for someone who min-cashes every time they cash in an MTT they will be a losing player.

Real simple,which would you prefer...

A 30% ITM number with a negative 20% ROI?

Or a 10% ITM number but a +20% ROI?

Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
I must of mist that post Dave, very impressing reading and some great points that says it all.

However some more to add for your great thoughts.

What about a player who grinds, i dont just mean grinding the tables but also grinding a BR.

Lets say I min cash in a mtt at lets say 75c profit.

That 75c I then wisely play 3 25c sngs cashing in lets say 2 of them.

I then still have my initail mtt buyin plus i have accumilated from the sngs.

I then lets say have 1.60 for example

i then buyin for 80 c and double up and leave on a 1c 2c cash game.

Winning bits but gradually boosting my BR.

I agree totally of as late, if you want to win big and get them first places you have to take calculated risks as i feel i have been doing.

Sometimes a min itm is better than nothing.

I agree that the winning players who have big wins will have a lower itm than the itm grinders.

But also think that grinding a BR as well can lead to a decent profit as i have done a few times.

Maybe its a question about how much BR you can afford and can you afford to take them risks.

If for example its your last buyin maybe an itm would do.

Either way I have read some absolute great knowledge tonight and appreciate it all.

P>S if my post is a bit mixed up forgive me its 7 am here lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I really don't think you get it ace. "Grinding" implies someone who is mashing out a profit over volume. Someone who is "grinding itm" in large field mtt's is a losing player. Did you catch the part in my blog where I found a player who was ITM in large field events a whopping half the time? If you're going to call anyone an "itm grinder" it would be that player, and yet they were losing money. That's what -ROI means.



Of course, if you don't cash you're bust. Then again putting your case money, 100% of your bankroll on a single buy in large field mtt is foolish, no?

If you are a min-cash grinder, then don't play large field MTT's because you will always be a long term loser at them. Play small fields where min-cashing is rewarded more... 9 mans-45 mans at most imo. For large fields play satellites, where everyone gets the same prize and you don't have to play to win. And play some form of cash games, where once you learn how to be a winning player the profit is more steady and variance lower than the large swings that come with big field mtt action.

As usual Dave is spot on here. I've seen players on OPR in the past myself whom played 75-80% of their shown games on OPR in large field MTT's,had an ITM % in the high 30 to low 40 percentile and yet had a negative ROI. And let me assure you that if they were on a table with me and had a large sample of results like that (along with being pretty much in line on that stat line on recent events---always important to take that into account)then I knew that they were A: a great target to steal from with impunity and B: if they ever DO enter a pot they have a hand,period. That's invariably a player type who's looking to hit a couple big hands when they have monsters and then turtle home to a min-cash. Easy pickings.


Look for you ask yourself this and be honest...can you grind a large volume on the .25 45 mans,like opening up some more tables and keep your win rate from dipping too much as a result (better to be +20% ROI on 4 tables than +40% on 1 table...)?

If so then that's your grind...the game with less variance that you know you can beat. Can be 2NL,45 or 90 mans,smaller and even single table SNG's,50/50's...doesn't really matter just as long as you know you can beat it and keep beating it as you increase volume.

Do that,make sure you have your BR flush enough to continue your grind through the inevitable variance,build to get to the next station (.10/.25's jump to .50's for instance...whatever is sensible for you),make sure you're properly rolled for that move up.

If you're doing all that then the profit you derive beyond funding your grind and subsequent move up can be used for taking your shots in a higher variance arena---the large field MTT's.

Many,many players who play large field MTT's almost exclusively are staked or sell pieces of themselves. Just so they're insulated from the numerous dry spells that will occur when playing MTT's.

If you can be smart with your $ then the profit you accumulate from your "grind" games (provided that you can be profitable...)makes your endeavors into MTT's an virtual freeroll situation for yourself. YOU aren't really paying to play,the players you beat in your grind game(s) are.

That way you can open up and play the MTT's properly...in other words playing to go deep as often as you can.

BTW this is a realization I came to just before US players got slammed by Black Friday and when we get back I'm totally fixing that leak in my game as far as MTT strategy goes...I was definitely too focused on cashing instead of winning far too often.

Lastly if you really want what Dave is saying about grinding smaller field events instead of MTT's just go look at the payout structures for the 3-4 smallest prizes for 45 man SNG's and less versus your 1000+ runner MTT's. That should drive the point home.
 
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Fri Nov 09, 2012, 06:00 PM
(#17)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hi guys, well isnt that what i was saying?

My wordings terrible lol

Yes Dave i read about players with as much as 50% itm and they are on a -roi.

I understand that if i have a 25% itm and only play to min cash, in fact it would be a -roi.

as the 75% im losing would cost more than the 25% was winnning.

AS of late by the hands im posting you can see i have often give up itm spots to try for first place.

Im with you moxie, i have seen it too what it takes to get +roi.
And if you want to win big its no good cowarding waiting for the aces or as such.

And yes we should still be aware of the play and not have a cavalier approach.

And ty moxie and dave great stuff again with far better wording than i have in my vocabulary lol.

People might not think this but in fact i do use BR management to a degree, and i do have 45ppls to build up from and 1c 2c cash tables where i can win when i put my mind to it.

As you say mox you have to have a good foundation to build up from.

Most of my large field events i am playing with money i have won and not my originall BR.

If you remember the guide i posted to how to become a pro, that was not far of the truth.

I explain about using free money as such from grinding to play the bigger field events.

And yes dave i think i sghhould definate look into qualifiers more to try reach them higher buy in events.

I would run a stake, but doubtfull i would get any backers.

I have experimented all year and look at my opr etc every day i play, and i asked myself the question why do i do so well yet also do so poor, and its the fact that i dont run deep enough at times, and need to be less passive at times creating yes a lower itm of possibly the 12% region , but in fact then would gain +roi.
I do see it guys, just need to keep my foundations solid, and then the mtts will be like a free ticket.
 
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omg look at the proof - Fri Nov 09, 2012, 06:34 PM
(#18)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
below i have posted my monthly stat for all time, the proof is right there notice the low itm but better profits..


holdemace486
Poker Statistics
Statistics includes scheduled PokerStars MTT poker tournaments and PokerStars SNG tournaments. (SNG min. 36 players).
* Please see coverage for what tournaments are tracked and included.
Statistics Period
Full Tracking Last 120 days Year 2012 Year 2011 Year 2010 Year 2009 Year 2008 Year 2007 ? < 2007 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2011 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 May 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 January 2010 December 2010 November 2010 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 June 2010 May 2010 April 2010 March 2010 February 2010 January 2009 December 2009 November 2009 October 2009 September 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 April 2009 March 2009 February 2009 January 2008 December 2008 November 2008 October 2008 September 2008 August 2008 July 2008 June 2008 May 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2007 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 September 2007 August 2007 July 2007 June 2007 May 2007 April 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2006 December 2006 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 January

with estimated RA expenses (and bounties in FTP Knockouts) without estimated RA expenses (and bounties in FTP Knockouts)
View by Game
Game Size All Holdem NL Holdem L/PL Omaha Omaha HiLo Other Games

ITM Finishes
1st 1
1st ties 0
2nd 0
3rd 1
4-10th 0
MTT Avg. Finish Percentage
Early 22% (10%)
Early/Middle 30% (20%)
Middle 26% (40%)
Middle/Late 13% (20%)
Late 9% (10%)
Top-5
$43
$3
$0
$0
$0



Game * Prizes Won Net Profit ROI Average
Buy-In Average
Field Size R/A ITM/Played ITM
Hold'em NL $46 * * * 282 0% 2/23 9%
Hold'em L/PL $0 * * * 0 0% 0/0 0%
Omaha $0 * * * 0 0% 0/0 0%
Omaha Hi Lo $0 * * * 0 0% 0/0 0%
Other $0 * * * 0 0% 0/0 0%
$46 * * * 282 0% 2/23 9%



* PokerStars players have to opt-in before Profit, ABI and ROI are displayed. Click here for PokerStars opt-in/out info.
Carbon Poker tournaments and player statistics online on OPR





Monthly
Summaries All Poker
Results Best Poker
Results Poker Stats
Breakdown
Monthly
Summaries
All Poker
Results
Best Poker
Results
Poker Stats
Breakdown


holdemace486 Poker Summaries
holdemace486 is playing poker at PokerStars
Summaries always calculated in GMT+0


Game Field Size
All Hold'em NL Hold'em L/PL Omaha Hi Omaha Hi Lo Other All Heads-Up 2 player Single Table 3-10 Multi Table 11-45 Multi Table 46-180 Multi Table 181- with estimated RA expenses (and bounties in FTP Knockouts) without estimated RA expenses (and bounties in FTP Knockouts)

* PokerStars players have to opt-in before Profit, ABI and ROI are displayed. Click here for PokerStars opt-in/out info.



Time Period ITM/Played ITM% 1st-3rd F.Late Prizes Won ABI ROI Net Profit
Full Tracking 335/2282 15% 92 11% $2,752 * * *
Last 120 days 32/167 19% 15 13% $57 * * *
Year 2012 180/934 19% 58 13% $757 * * *
Year 2011 80/561 14% 19 10% $520 * * *
Year 2010 49/511 10% 9 8% $865 * * *
Year 2009 26/276 9% 6 9% $610 * * *
Year 2008 0/0 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
Year 2007 0/0 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
? < 2007 0/0 0% 0 0% $0 * * *

2012 November 7/26 27% 3 23% $21 * * *
2012 October 0/14 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2012 September 4/16 25% 1 13% $4 * * *
2012 August 7/31 23% 2 10% $8 * * *
2012 July 19/126 15% 11 12% $186 * * *
2012 June 7/46 15% 1 9% $45 * * *
2012 May 19/93 20% 3 15% $23 * * *
2012 April 21/119 18% 4 13% $62 * * *
2012 March 42/187 22% 11 14% $305 * * *
2012 February 25/111 23% 12 16% $48 * * *
2012 January 29/165 18% 10 12% $54 * * *
2011 December 42/256 16% 18 9% $87 * * *
2011 November 4/26 15% 0 15% $36 * * *
2011 October 0/0 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2011 September 0/0 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2011 August 0/0 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2011 July 0/0 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2011 June 0/0 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2011 May 17/142 12% 0 11% $313 * * *
2011 April 2/42 5% 0 5% $14 * * *
2011 March 4/21 19% 1 19% $14 * * *
2011 February 0/10 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2011 January 11/64 17% 0 14% $57 * * *
2010 December 2/26 8% 0 4% $2 * * *
2010 November 0/1 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2010 October 0/3 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2010 September 0/6 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2010 August 3/31 10% 0 10% $23 * * *
2010 July 12/140 9% 1 8% $113 * * *
2010 June 3/19 16% 0 11% $16 * * *
2010 May 9/82 11% 4 11% $140 * * *
2010 April 18/178 10% 4 9% $566 * * *
2010 March 0/0 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2010 February 0/7 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2010 January 2/18 11% 0 6% $6 * * *
2009 December 0/6 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2009 November 0/4 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2009 October 0/4 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2009 September 3/27 11% 0 11% $25 * * *
2009 August 0/3 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2009 July 0/16 0% 0 0% $0 * * *
2009 June 3/41 7% 2 7% $167 * * *
2009 May 3/10 30% 0 30% $49 * * *
2009 April 2/27 7% 0 7% $14 * * *
2009 March 13/115 11% 2 10% $308 * * *
2009 February 2/23 9% 2

Last edited by holdemace486; Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 06:37 PM.. Reason: hey it all messed up and posted other stuff sry need delete
 
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? to dave and moxie - Fri Nov 09, 2012, 07:14 PM
(#19)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Would you say though at huge buyins, e.g the world series live,

a min cash itm is good because of the amount of prize?
 
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Fri Nov 09, 2012, 07:55 PM
(#20)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
To you or me probably yes.

But I assure you that the Ivey's,Hellmuth's and the rest of the world could give a rat's fart about min-cashing.

It's like here...if you were to win a ticket to the Sunday Million through investing just a couple dollars or even some FPP's and then decide to play the tourney instead of just cashing that ticket,then the amount that a min-cash would pay would be a considerable boost to your BR. Ergo in that instance you could be making a "correct" decision to go in with the attitude of securing an in the money finish as your top priority and then anything that follows is sauce for the goose.

But the flip side of that coin is that the players for whom playing the Sunday Million is the equivalent of you or me loading up a .25 45 man are going to have a big advantage us beyond even any skill advantage they would normally have...the fact that they're just playing poker and doing nothing more than making the most +EV decisions that they know how to,whilst we would be passing on many spots because we have a different objective. And once they suss that out they are 1000% going to abuse us at every opportunity.

That's why playing out of one's depth,or comfort level,is such a bad idea. If you can't play your game to the best of your ability then you're playing with half the deck tied behind your back.

That's why were I to ever secure a big money event ticket through a satellite my decision to play or cash the ticket in for T$ would simply come down to "If I play,am I going to REALLY play?". If I'm comfortable that I would do so then I'd probably go for it in some instances. Win or lose if I give it my best effort and don't leave the table with my ammo pouch still packed with rounds and powder,then I can pretty much live with any result.
 

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