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5nl 6max zoom - 99 overpair and open-ended straight flush draw on the turn vs unkown

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5nl 6max zoom - 99 overpair and open-ended straight flush draw on the turn vs unkown - Sun Nov 11, 2012, 09:17 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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The opponent was a one-tabling short-stacked unknown (no stats), and the big thing that was different with this hand for me was the other person's short-stack. I bet the flop hoping for a fold, but they called. And then I just didn't know what to do on the turn because:


(1) My hand sort of *looked* strong, but I wasn't sure where I stood, and

(2) I wasn't sure how the short-stack was going to react to a raise since they were so short - what if they reraised? Do I want to be getting the chips all in the middle on the turn? Should I just shove first and hope for a fold some of the time?




For some reason, I remember them being a lot shorter than they actually were - were they maybe not short so short that the play is any different? I guess their stack size to me just felt a little awkward, maybe because sometimes short-stacks respond to raises by deciding to go all-in? I'm not sure ... :/

PS Also, should I have 3bet pre-flop?

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:25 PM..
 
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Sun Nov 11, 2012, 09:35 PM
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craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
Hey Sam,

I'd say no to the 3-bet preflop, in the cutoff or button then yes because it's more likely to be a steal, but I think a call is best here preflop.

On the flop i think leading out is good, i think, and i would probably get it in against a raise, just because there are lots of draws that could try get it in here, as well as like A8.

On the turn I would be continuing and would be so happy if i got a raise. Overpair and open ended straight flush draw. We have so much equity in this hand and can get paid by so many hands that are in worse shape than us.

In this hand I think with the opponent playing less than 50bb and the amount of equity we have in the hand it's all about getting the money in.
 
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Sun Nov 11, 2012, 11:12 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Hmmm ... that makes a lot of sense about there being so much equity in contrast to how little the villain had left.

I won't spoil the ending until we here the pro analysis, but I did feel like maybe the shorter stack changed how we were supposed to play the hand or something?

So that makes sense that it might be better to try to get the chips in on the turn - nice analysis Craig!! Thx!!
 
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Mon Nov 12, 2012, 10:12 AM
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GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey Sam

I agree we wouldn't mind getting all the chips in on the turn. I think the best way to do this for us would be to check-raise all-in as opposed to bet-calling all-in. So I would check the turn and should my opponent check behind I can make an informed decision about value betting the river.

The reason I say this is because I think leading twice will narrow their range pretty strongly. They can take one off on the flop with a wide range, especially if they are a less experienced player. But if we fire the second barrel as a lead then they will have to weigh their options. If they then move all-in over the top we will be getting odds to call in all likelihood but I won't be happy about it.

So instead I like checking. They can bet better and worse and we can move all in with real equity and fold equity. If they check back its not the end of the world, we know that we probably have the best hand on the turn if they check back and can decide which rivers to bet/fold, which to bet/call, which to check/call, and which to check/fold accordingly. I don't mind the flop lead if you are worried about a passive player checking behind who can call with a wide range, but certainly check-call is definitely an option on the table as well.
 
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Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:20 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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I got 75 hands in while waiting for this page to load up


Okay, so let's see ...

Option 1: check-raise
Option 2: bet-call

And a check-raise is preferable to a bet-call.


Let's see what Sam decided to do ...






I think I've had that happen before where I've bet into a short-stack, gotten reraised, and then there's that feeling of like ... oh no, my hand's probably behind, but I'm getting such good odds to call :/ I guess I thought by shoving first, I could avoid that situation, and it'd be the other person who would have to deal with the tricky decision?


But I really like the idea of a check-shove - because then there's the chance to see how the other person acts. And a check-raise looks super-strong. I think it looks stronger than shoving a full stack into somebody who only has $1.71 behind, anyways. Because when people do that to me I tend to think they look a little desperate, like they really want me to fold! I wonder if maybe that was part of the reason they called!


And then if it got checked behind, yeah, that totally would have been fine with me. I probably would have check-called, but one of these days maybe I'll remember to try bet-calling or bet-folding for a change. So many new moves to try and remember


Thx Gareth!!! Very helpful as always!!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:23 PM..
 
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Tue Nov 13, 2012, 08:16 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
I don't mind the flop lead if you are worried about a passive player checking behind who can call with a wide range, but certainly check-call is definitely an option on the table as well.
Oh ... bwa haha!! I just noticed this part today ... looks like I got 2 tips for the price of one

I guess me donking out and making the bet so huge kind of contributed to making the turn so awkward when the pot got so big, eh?


Gosh, I've got a ton of these little bad habits I've developed here and there, where I do stuff not quite the way I know we're supposed to (since a pair against overs is a 3:1 favorite, and 99 against an overpair would have been drawing to 2 outs unless the turn gave me more).

I guess I do it, because:
(1) When I get outdrawn, sometimes it can be tilting when I get a look at the person's hand, and
(2) when I get oudrawn, sometimes I can't fold - *still* ... sigh ...


Sample hand:



So bad

Also, probably I should have checked the turn - and my raise was too big anyways.


I guess two wrongs don't make a right though, eh? I should try to fix that too - okay thx Gareth!!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:27 PM..
 
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Wed Nov 14, 2012, 01:08 AM
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joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
IMO, you should have folded pre, but I'm kinda a nit.

 
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Wed Nov 14, 2012, 01:31 AM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joy7108 View Post
IMO, you should have folded pre, but I'm kinda a nit.


Hey Joy ... I remember you giving the 6-max full-ring challenge a go last time, but you didn't follow through.

Since you've done so well at tourneys I would think you should be able to adapt to cash games pretty well if you gave it time.

But there are big differences between playing 10-50bb stacks and playing 100bb's deep to get the biggest win-rate you can, and to do that at 6-max you have to be willing to do things like play 98s out of position because there ARE people who are going to be raising into you with hands like 73o. And 98s can win really big pots against hands like AKo that it's competitive with pre-flop as well.

One advantage to cash is the freedom to play whenenver you want. Another are the VPPs ... although those come from paying more rake, so ... I dunno - maybe tourney players have it better there I dunno lol

Hope things are going well at the tables for you - haven't seen u around much
 
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Wed Nov 14, 2012, 10:03 PM
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joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
You're right, I didn't adjust my thinking from the league games I was playing at the time.

I had a little poker break, I needed a few days away from the tables. I used to play quite a lot of six max, both cash and tourneys. I got messed up on the challenge when my PokerTracker went haywire in the middle, and I couldn't figure out how to calculate my profit manually. This time around I had other commitments and didn't have enough time.

I did follow the thread, you did great!

 
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Thu Nov 15, 2012, 12:29 AM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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The best part of the promotion was getting to hear how everybody else who plays the same games has had so many of the same experiences at the tables - like the strange-sized raises, and losing to strangest hands like 23o or whatever. Sometimes it's so easy to get discouraged otherwise I guess? So that was great.

I really liked the Cowboy Challenge when that was going on for the same reason (for SNGs)

It'd be cool if they had something like that for tourney players - I guess there's been those series like the PSOSP and The Flame ... maybe they'll have more of those in the future?
 

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