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5nl Zoom - AQo UTG. Turn spot.

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5nl Zoom - AQo UTG. Turn spot. - Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:55 AM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Unfortunately as I write this I don't have any access to my HUD however I can remember the hand quite well so will try provide as much info as I can.

The villain on the BTN is a reg who I know 3-bets quite a lot (around 10-12%) in position, however I have little to no info on his post flop tendencies. He is aggressive however not overly aggressive I would estimate his AF to be about 2-2.5ish.

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

I actually misclicked to 4x but I don't think this is a huge mistake as I am OOP and many people raise slightly bigger when UTG. I then get 3-bet to a reasonable amount, just under 3 times my raise. Normally I would fold this here as I OOP and don't like playing OOP in a 3-bet pot; however I know this villain 3-bets quite a lot and therefore think I can profitably call. I don't like 4-betting as he folds a lot of worse hands that I potnetially dominate so I think flatting is okay.

I flop TPTK but the board isn't great, I think he will cbet a wide array of hands on this flop: draws, sets, TP, second pair, 2 pair, straights and maybe even complete misses. I feel I have the best hand a lot of the time but don't want to inflate the pot so elect to check/call.

The 2s on the turn is pretty inconsequential, again I don't like raising here as if I get raised I have to fold. I decide to check again and he makes a really big bet for around 80% pot. Here I think that his range narrows massively, I think he would check behind weak TP along with other 1 pair hands, however could he play a draw like this? I think he might fire QcJc but is are there any other worse hands betting this turn like this?

I haven't got pokerstove handy either so haven't been able to do any equity calculations.

Sorry for the vague post and thanks for any advice.

Oliver


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Mon Nov 12, 2012, 10:01 AM
(#2)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I think AQo utg is a really yucky hand, difficult to play profitably, and gets you into some very sticky spots. If it was AJo I am folding. I hate open limping as a rule too so I probably 3X this. It will be good to hear Gareth's feeling on this.

If I was 3 bet in this spot, I would either fold or 4bet, and be happy to take it down with a 4bet.

If someone is 3 betting very loose from the button, A10o+ and 6s+ is probably his range but when he 3bets a 4x bet utg his range is probably much tighter. The sizing of his 3 bet is a bit smallish but the flat is the worse of the 3 options imo even with good odds.

Flop we are in the sticky position we don't want. As played I think check/call does not over inflate the pot but if you donk raise and he reraises you have an easy fold.

His raise on the turn shouts "let go" to me and I probably do, without reads to the contrary, as the only card that really improves for me against his range is a 10.

Cheers,
 
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Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:49 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi,

I know this will sound a bit nitty, but imo this is just a fold preflop. You can not profitably call and play OOP here against a solid reg, even if his 3b% is 10%. Not having the initiative, or position, is too big a handicap to overcome even though he's sometimes hitting it lighter than normal. In order to think about calling pre here imo we need a villain who is exploitable post flop in some clearly defined way or who is prone to making big mistakes. Solid regs aren't it.

If he's 3betting us relentlessly (not the case here as stated, just for discussion sake) then we can adjust by light 4-betting a bit more, and calling a bit more in position... Here though I tend to agree with top his range is probably tighter as he's reraising a 4x UTG open, which makes 4-betting (turning AQ into a bluff basically) unattractive to me, so just fold.

As played, his flop bet sizing is so large that I actually think it's ok to fold right there.
It's a wet board that hits his value range hard and is an action flop for your range (you are raise/calling with a range that he probably perceives as small/medium pairs and big aces... the pairs aren't giving any action on this board and big aces rate to give good action). This action really looks like AK or a set trying to build the pot now against exactly the kind of holding you have. If he's actually just following through with a c-bet holding QQ, TT, or AQ (probably not bet sizing so big, but it's possible), then your flop call should serve to slow him down, and yet he's firing another big barrel on the turn. Definitely agree to folding here. And it's a nice illustration of why we can not in fact call OOP profitably preflop here. If we miss the flop, we end up check-folding. If we hit 1 pair and have the worse hand, it's costing us extra money to find that out (in this case an extra .95c because we were able to find a fold on the turn). If we hit 1 pair and have the best hand, it doesn't compensate for the losses because A) hitting our hand happens much less than missing, B) we tend to win less money post flop from a solid villain when we outflop him, and C) sometimes we can still get taken off the hand or put in very difficult spots getting confronted with a commitment decision to stack off to better hands or fold a hand with showdown value yielding a medium sized pot.

Rule of thumb: Don't play 3-bet pots out of position without the initiative against solid players on deeper money. You need a much stronger holding than you think to do this profitably and/or be playing at a very high level post flop.


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Tue Nov 13, 2012, 11:53 AM
(#4)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
The 2s on the turn is pretty inconsequential, again I don't like raising here as if I get raised I have to fold. I decide to check again and he makes a really big bet for around 80% pot. Here I think that his range narrows massively, I think he would check behind weak TP along with other 1 pair hands, however could he play a draw like this? I think he might fire QcJc but is are there any other worse hands betting this turn like this?
Whatever else is true in your comments, these are most important. Once the turn comes I think he is never bluffing, on this board, to this size, in this situation. So the worst hand he probably has here is AQ. When that is true we have a pretty clear fold.

I think your preflop sizing is fine. Anywhere between 3 and 4x here utg is reasonable. There are pluses and minuses to each size.

I think preflop is pretty marginal once we get three-bet though. If we feel like our opponent three-bets a wide range of hands on the button v our UTG, then with this hand at this stack depth I would prefer to four-bet to 1.25 and fold to a shove, should it come. With the suited version of AQ I would prefer to call as opposed to four-bet. Actually folding is in play for either case.

There is a big difference, positionally, between someone three-betting an UTG open and a CO open, between them three-betting in MP v on the button. So this player's tendencies is our most important priority in terms of formulating a plan for the hand.

As it happens if you check-fold here I think it would be our best route. Like you say he really is projecting a ton of strength.
 
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Tue Nov 13, 2012, 12:41 PM
(#5)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the advice

I will defo keep Lango's rule in mind now when faced with a 3b by a reg. I think my main problem in this hand was treating preflop as a 'vacum'. I didn't think at all how the hand would play out post flop and it ended up costing me money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
I think your preflop sizing is fine. Anywhere between 3 and 4x here utg is reasonable. There are pluses and minuses to each size.
As I said I misclicked here as I normally raise 3x UTG. I was just wondering what advatages raising to a slightly bigger size gives you as well as any negatives it provides?

Thanks again

Oliver


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Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:19 AM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
I've been meaning to add a note for a while now, but kind of got bogged down with the grind. But maybe Croyd's been busy too? With school? Haven't seen him at the tables too much this month.

Anyways, hey Croyd - when u were asking before if anybody could think of stuff that was different at 5nl from 2nl, I kind of wish I had said something about the increase in 3betting. Wikked and I were actually talking about here during the 6-max challenge: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...-thread/page27

I can TOTALLY understand why you were reluctant to give the button credit for having a better hand since it seems like people are 3betting with such a wider range - when I first went up to 5nl I thought people were 3-bet bluffing because it just seemed to be so much more frequent than I was used to, that I wasn't distinguishing between 3bets from the blinds into late position raisers, from late position raisers into utg raisers.

So I too wound up learning the hard way that 3bets into utg are pretty much always for value - something I also talked about in the 6-max challenge thread: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...hread&p=365848

I actually haven't seen much 3-bet bluffing with polarized ranges at all at 5nl - I think it's more accurate to say that people are 3-betting lighter from the blinds into late position blinds-stealers ... but it's generally for value?


Like the pop-up stats'll show if that person's high 3bet stats are because of 3bets from the blinds?

Not sure when the 3bet bluffing starts to happen ... maybe at 10nl? Eeep! Not sure I'll be ready for that any time soon ... some day hopefully


Hope school's going well, and the poker too if u just happen to be playing at different times



PS Also, hey ... do you still have the hands for the following HA threads? Some of them seem to have disappeared? Is that happening for everybody?

2nl - KQs OTB multiway
2nl 99 OTB. Did I misjudge the situation?
2nl zoom - AA in the SB. Horrible river card
2nl Zoom - AA UTG, KxK flop
2nl Zoom - AJo in the SB. C-bet/2barrel spot
2nl Zoom - AK in th BB. Should I have C-bet the flop?
2nl Zoom - KK in SB
2nl Zoom - KQs UTG. River spot
2nl Zoom - QTs OTB. Bet or check the turn?
KQo on the BTN. Played passively

Not even sure Croyd's still checking in regularly - guess I'll just keep this list here for when he does check in again
 
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Tue Nov 20, 2012, 08:34 PM
(#7)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
I spot checked a few and they come up "Error - Data not found". I would guess that he has deleted the corresponding hand histories.
 
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Tue Nov 20, 2012, 09:55 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Okay, thx for double-checking Joy ... hopefully when Croyd gets a minute, he'll be able to go back through his HM or PT to find them and repost them into the threads - such a nice resource to have HA in this forum, and so many of us seem to have a lot of the same trouble spots, so it's nice to be able to look at everybody else's hands rather than having us keep asking the same questions over and over again and stuff ...

How are things going for u?
 
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Sun Dec 02, 2012, 09:39 AM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Heyyyy ... Croyd!

It looks like maybe a lot of us must look at past HA submissions to get advice, judging by the request you got in this thread asking for a copy of the hand history?

2nl - KQs OTB multiway


When you get a minute, can you go back and do the same for the rest of the hands that got erased? I'd be willing to exchange a hand history of mine for one of the hands we've played against each other, if that'll help speed things up - your pick of hand. Although, I have to admit, I wouldn't be very happy about making any of them public ... but I'll do it if need be ...


2nl 99 OTB. Did I misjudge the situation?
2nl zoom - AA in the SB. Horrible river card
2nl Zoom - AA UTG, KxK flop
2nl Zoom - AJo in the SB. C-bet/2barrel spot
2nl Zoom - AK in th BB. Should I have C-bet the flop?
2nl Zoom - KK in SB
2nl Zoom - KQs UTG. River spot
2nl Zoom - QTs OTB. Bet or check the turn?
KQo on the BTN. Played passively


Thx, Sam.
 
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Wed Dec 05, 2012, 11:12 AM
(#10)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi Sam,

Sorry I've taken forever to reply! I have had it on my to do list for quite a while but it always seems to slip my mind. Anyway apologies for deleting the HH, I had a bit of a clear out a few months back simply because I had far too many in there and it was becoming a pain to scroll all the way to the bottom.

However I will glady upload them when I get a few hours to spare as I have since found out that you can group hands into folders. I can' t promise I will find them all but I will do my best. If I haven't done them within a week or two then send me a PM reminding me because i'll be honest I'm likely to forget.

Also I'm still thinking you may have bluffed me off the best hand in our match up the other day .

Oliver


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Thu Dec 06, 2012, 12:23 AM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
Hi Sam,

Sorry I've taken forever to reply! I have had it on my to do list for quite a while but it always seems to slip my mind. Anyway apologies for deleting the HH, I had a bit of a clear out a few months back simply because I had far too many in there and it was becoming a pain to scroll all the way to the bottom.

However I will glady upload them when I get a few hours to spare as I have since found out that you can group hands into folders. I can' t promise I will find them all but I will do my best. If I haven't done them within a week or two then send me a PM reminding me because i'll be honest I'm likely to forget.
k, thx Oliver!! Sorry for asking you to do extra work like that - that's why I was trying to figure out something I could offer back in exchange for your time.

I think I've got something better than a hand history - it's my secret stash of Hand Analysis Summaries I've hidden in plain site. I don't want to post the location out in the open for too long because it's secret. But if I see you around, I'll let you know about it - a lot of the hands are yours so maybe you'll enjoy being able to look at your own hands at a glance?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post

Also I'm still thinking you may have bluffed me off the best hand in our match up the other day .

Oliver
Okay, and then, like ... this part's a little awkward for me because, like ... I don't know ... are you playing hands against everybody at PSO? Because a lot of us just mostly try to avoid each other, because it's just so much easier to win money against people playing junk hands like 47o who are willing to call to the river chasing gutters and stuff like that.

So like ... part of me thinks it'd be kind of cool to trade notes on each others' play. But then there's that question of how much to disclose if we're still going to be playing against each other?

It's kind of my nature to try and be helpful though, so with that last hand ... like if you think you have the best hand, you should definitely call! My biggest leak is calling too much, but I guess there must be people who have the opposite tendency to not call enough?


 

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