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25 NL 6-max: T8s 3-bet pot oop with marginal hand

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25 NL 6-max: T8s 3-bet pot oop with marginal hand - Wed Nov 14, 2012, 02:30 PM
(#1)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Hi!
In this hand I am on the small blind and I decide to 3-bet to re-steal from the button, with a hand that can flop well if we get called. As far as the sizing is concerned, I tend to 3-bet at around the same size against 2X, 2.5x, 3x steals from the button, with both my resteals and my value-hands. The reasoning behind this, is to dissuade the 2X stealers from calling light in position believing they can min raise my bb and then call the smaller sized 3-bet and play me in position.
Do you find this to be a profitable strategy in general or should I just 3-bet accordingly to different steal sizes??

After getting called, in one spot, from the bb, we got to put him on a fairly strong range of hands, right? Something like big suited broadways and some pocket pairs 77 - TT. I don't think he would flat call with QQ+ and one might even 4-bet for value JJ. Is this how a strong player's range would look like at this spot??

On the flop, we hit top pair and some backdoor draws as well. At this point I checked to induce a bluff from the broadway hands that called, some pairs like 66,88,99 that decide to protect and avoid a gross spot where i bet and get raised out of the pot.
On the turn, we get a gutshot str8 flush draw and i decide to go for the good ol' checkraise . The problem with this play is that we fold out all the hands that we 're miles ahead of and i don't think we are folding out any better hands. The way we played it i don't thik a AT,KT would fold since the only monster that we can actually represent is JJ (check call flop for pot control, and check jam turn to protect against tons of draws). All flopped sets like TT, 77, 55 would most likely c-bet the flop with the hopes of getting the money in. The same i think goes for 89..... So probably pretty horribly played on the turn right?
Any suggestions for my play post-flop would be most welcome!

Sorry for so many questions crammed in one post.


 
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Thu Nov 15, 2012, 05:41 AM
(#2)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Well I am only responding to this thread because I really want to know what the hand analysers will say

I think it is an unbelievably well played hand although I think you may well have folded out some better hands (you only have 2nd pair weak kicker) on the turn since the straight just got there.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:41 PM
(#3)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
I don't have too much to add to topthecast's remarks. I think that preflop is fine so long as you have reason to believe he opens wide on the button and can fold fairly frequently to this play. On the flop when we get a cold caller we really should check and call since we have showdown value but can't get called by much worse, (99), should we bet the flop. We would be seriously over representing our hand and checking does a nice job of under representing it.

On the turn we have a boatload of real equity against lots of holdings. I think checking is clear, we keep any bluffs in as well as any light holdings. Once he makes this bet size we are kind of stuck, I think we have to rule out check-call because, being out of position, we won't be able to effectively realize our equity. We could have elicited a second bluff on this turn from an AQ/KQ/AK type hand. I think that isn't a great possibilty, but it is one, and that when we combine that with the outs we will have versus his calling range should our opponent bet/call, check-raising all-in is an excellent decision. It is certainly better than check-calling and I think it has to be better than check-folding as well. The times he calls with QQ, for instance, we just have a ton of outs, and that's ok.

Well done.
 
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Fri Nov 16, 2012, 02:21 AM
(#4)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Thanks Gareth!

The line on the turn makes a lot more sense now, the way you analysed it!
You have also included QQ on the bb's range of hands. Could you give us a clearer idea of the bb's range as you see it?

Would it also be possible to offer your opinion on the 3-bet sizing issue that i touched on my first post (on the first paragraph), or should i post such a general question on a new topic?

p.s. a little detail that i forgot to mention is that the opponent snap-folded on the turn c/r so he probably held one of the broadways that completely missed or a small pocket pair(can't see why he would bet the turn with it again though).

Last edited by f1nlaion; Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 02:25 AM..
 
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Sat Nov 17, 2012, 07:00 AM
(#5)
behappy621's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 181
Hey f1n,

I think post flop it was played fine,
but i would normally have a smaller 3bet, because firstly the btn raise is only 2.5x, your making it HUGE for him to call, which might look to others and him that your trying to push him off, so really if he see's that he could come over the top if hes a good player and see you doing this too often.
Also if he calls, your in pretty bad shape, here we were fortunate, i think the BB had something like AK/ AQs, and thought you were stealing, so he had position on you, and
his play would work majority of the time, that when you check call, if you didnt pick up the gut shot or flush, his double barell would pay off.
in long run i prefer to 3bet 3x, but no more 3.5x cause i dont want to give away i have a strong/weak hand, that way you can polarize your range, i just think you can save alot of money in long run with a smaller 3bet.
thinking about it, if you make it that huge, the btn(your intended target in the hand) would most likely 4bet you more often than call i presume as your simply not giving him the price to draw out on you, so he really should 4bet you and be deciding to go with his hand pf. then you could have saved yourself a little $$$

thats my thinking anyway, its an interesting spot, and what i remember is we shouldnt be results oriented, so if someone could elaborate on the pf decision and what would be the best play, that would be great.

BTW great check raise on turn, i was really rooting for you to hit the river :P
 
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Sat Nov 17, 2012, 07:27 AM
(#6)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Thanks for your contribution on the analysis behappy621.

About the 3-bet sizing i think you didn't pay close attention to my first post :
"As far as the sizing is concerned, I tend to 3-bet at around the same size against 2X, 2.5x, 3x steals from the button, with both my resteals and my value-hands."

So in case a regular 4-bets me light at those spots he will also run into my value range. Therefore given that my range is balanced there, i don't think that is such a serious issue.
But again i am not certain if the "standard size 3-bet" strategy is profitable. That is why i asked the opinion of one of the PSO analyzers

Last edited by f1nlaion; Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 08:21 AM..
 

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