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5nl Zoom - 5 bets pre, time to fold QQ?

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5nl Zoom - 5 bets pre, time to fold QQ? - Sun Dec 02, 2012, 06:52 PM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
I have no hands or reads on either opponent, however I checked in the client when playing the hand and the initial raiser was playing 4 tables.

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Pre flop the 4 tabler opens for 4x and gets 3bet, I'm don't like flat calling here as it gives the initial raiser great odds to come along. If I call I can often end up without initiative, OOP in a 3 bet pot (sometimes multiway). I thus decided to 4-bet to $1.20, I think my raise is a little small and actually prefer a bet of around $1.50. Any thoughts?

The reg then 5 bet shoves and the BTN folds. I think this is a pretty baorrible spot but as we're zooming this seems a fold to me. If the player is a single tabler I would call here as I think they would shove any AK as well as QQ+ (if not wider) however I think against a reg we are going to get shown AA/KK a lot of the time. So is it time to fold or is my ranging off?

Thanks for any help

Oliver


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Mon Dec 03, 2012, 02:53 AM
(#2)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey Oliver

I wonder, did you have a plan for this scenario when you four-bet? Did you know whether you were calling or folding based on the button's reaction to your four-bet?

If you were folding in both instances then I think flat calling would certainly be better than four-betting to fold to a shove. If we four bet/fold then we are wasting a hand that can play very well after the flop.

I am a bit more skeptical about folding here. It is unfortunate that we do not block AA or KK, so in a way we have a bad hand to call with. But I am skeptical of this four tabler's stack size. How polished could they be with their ranges given that they don't use the auto-top up feature?

This spot really speaks to the value of HUD statistics. If we had only basic knowledge of the button's three-bet % we might infer something about the cutoff's willingness to go with a top 3% hand. Because the 11x is in their dead as well from the button, and the cutoff does not have a full stack, we are getting a really nice price to call it off here.

Finally I very much like your size for the four-bet. If you make it larger you turn your hand face up as one that has value and is not folding. With this size you can certainly have bluffs or at the least your opponent's can deduce that they have fold equity with a five-bet shove.

So given all those things I would certainly not fault a call here, but it is ugly, and we are going to run into kings and aces a fair amount of the time.
 
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Mon Dec 03, 2012, 03:12 AM
(#3)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi Gareth,

When I four bet I first checked the tables of each player and decided that if the initial raiser (the 4 tabler) shoved then I would reluctantly fold but if the BTN wanted to get it in then I would be calling off, as they we're single tabling. I'm not sure if this is a correct way to be thinking but at the time it seemed right without any further reads or statistics.

I actually four bet a little smaller to induce calls from parts of each opponents range that might otherwise fold, mainly AQ and smaller PP such as TT and JJ.

I reluctantly hit the fold BTN here as I felt that I wasn't going to run into AK or enough of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
I am a bit more skeptical about folding here. It is unfortunate that we do not block AA or KK, so in a way we have a bad hand to call with. But I am skeptical of this four tabler's stack size. How polished could they be with their ranges given that they don't use the auto-top up feature?
I didn't even think of this as when I checked he was 4 tabling I assumed he was a reg, I suppose I should have thought a bit more in depth as I have at least some hands on most of the regs at this level.

Also would you ever recommend flat calling here? If I flat call and flop an over pair I will be happy getting it in, however I might lose value from AK that would have got it in pre flop.

It's safe to say that I found this spot pretty tricky so thanks for the help

Oliver


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Mon Dec 03, 2012, 09:58 AM
(#4)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Flat calling is usually the best option here when you know the button is wide to super wide and the initial raiser is a weak player who will call bets postflop that they should not.

The plan then would be to flat call a lot of hands and lead out on favourable flops anticipating the initial raiser will come along way too much and you can get value, then not being too worried about the button juts because their range is going to be relatively weak on a lot of boards.
 

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