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"Donking"

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"Donking" - Mon Dec 03, 2012, 08:32 PM
(#1)
Guyguyson's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
Is donking a bad move in the micros? Say if I have pocket 6's and call a tight players raise and the flop comes 2,10,6 should I bet in to him or check and hope he cbets? And what do I do in the same kind of situation against loose/tight passive players in general? (Obviously if I know someone c-bets every flop i'll check raise them until they catch on and i'll value bet calling stations etc)

I keep reading that donking is usually a bad move unless it's for protection on a wet board that wasn't likely to have improved their hand etc, and it made me think I could be missing out on extra value in certain situations.

Last edited by Guyguyson; Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:46 PM..
 
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Mon Dec 03, 2012, 09:26 PM
(#2)
Sentras's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 122
Well I think donking could be fine, but might somethimes lose you money because you are out of position.

- You donk and he folds. ok you pick it up.
- You donk he reraises you. could be with a draw, could be much. You can't profitably call that.
- You donk he calls there will be some many ugly turns, you kinda have to bet again to show strength or he might bluff / valuebet you and you have no idea where you are standing.

I prefer check calling. If he bets the turn he most likely has you beat, and else you only beat bluffs. He'll often check behind. and maybe bet river, I'd also call if it doesn't massively hits his range and also depending on how big the bet is.

However how i play low pocketpairs is check fold at all times. Just set mining with them out position and try to get max value if I hit. I only really play back with lower pocketpairs postflop if I got a stable read. For example if he C-bets always. or bets a retarded small bet.
I will 100% reraise him to put pressure. After the reraise I give up unless I improve.
 
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Mon Dec 03, 2012, 09:44 PM
(#3)
Guyguyson's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
Sorry I meant the flop comes something like 2,10,6 with pocket 6's. Basically donking when you hit the flop on a dry board.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 07:09 AM
(#4)
Sentras's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 122
Oh wow that was super bad instead of that 2610 flop I read 2410
Big mistake on my part. I assumed it would be hard to play as you missed but your oppoant most likely aswell.

Well how I play depends on the player. If he is super tight.

- Check (because if you donk you might scare him without an over pocketpair.) He might bet AK AQ on that flop and will certainly bet if he connected to the flop. I would call on 2410 board in case he has AKQJ'ish hand he could be getting all his chips in easely if they hit the turn. If he happens to have JJ's or QQ's and a K or A hit the turn. We missed value from not instantly raising. But I think we'd stillg et value.

If he bets the turn. I always reraise certainly if the board got wetter. or an overcard came. if he happened to have A10and folds. thats just bummer, but then again if you feel more sure he hit the flop just reraise then and there. I just notice they tend to fold alot there. while give less credit on turn raises.

If you'd call the turn. always lead on river he might check down, and we don't want that!

I think it comes down to alot of feel and trying it out. Theres a simple rule I use when entering a pot.

The amount I have to call with any pocket pair from 22 to JJ that amount I do *17. thats the size of the pot i want to make this profitable. (actually has to be a little more)

1/8th times we'll hit the flop. So if we in BB and UTG raised to 0.15$ and you gotta make 0.10$ to call. I want the pot to be 1.70$ at least. (Only 1/64 times he'll hit an higher or. lower set.)
The pot should already be 0.32$ so if there are 3 streets of 50% value. 0.60 - 1.20 - 2.40$. So as you can see it's not that hard to get enough money in the pot. He'll certainly get it in with AA KK QQ and who knowns with top pair and 2pairs also. Thats mainly the reason why I don't like raising on the flop. lowers my oevrall value imo. I only reraise on super wet boards.

This method helps me alot in zoom and you know when people have higher chances of having a good hand. UTG/UTG+1 opens and 3bets.
for example I raised 22 and someone 3bets me from 0.15$ to 0.50$ and he's 100BB deep ofc. easy call. if they bluff reraised they often give up after we call. and mostly make some retarded small 3bet. and if he's strong, the pot only has to become 5.1$, and it easely becomes 10$ if he has a premium hand.

Srry probably alot of info. And a technique for Pocket pairs I use thats not really by the books I geuss. but it works for me. And they don't really tend to 3bet me anymore that light. Because I call alot, meaning they want to only get involved with me in raised pots with decent hand. and they get stacked

But by this technique it also works reverse. If I have a premium hand, I think how big has to become the pot to make it profitable for him. And whenever he makes a sign of having a set. I am easely getting away from it. unless he's known to bluff.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 08:37 AM
(#5)
Guyguyson's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
Thanks for the advice, both posts were pretty helpful. In zoom i've found it easier to get value for my strong hands for some reason, someone always seems to enter the pot with an ace or broadway and stick around for the turn if the flop misses them and when they hit anything I usually stack them. It's like everyone just thinks your bluffing.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 10:12 AM
(#6)
Sentras's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 122
Yes indeed. There are 4types of player I mainly notice.

- Solid very tight and aggressive. fold until they get a really playable hand. Pretty easy to play against, if you hit strong= alot value or get away.

- Super aggressive 3betters (mostly small 3bets.) They look to get alot of chips preflop. They also open alot late position.

- Bluffy. They give nobody credit. They call 1street or donk you. If they opened aggression they'll bluff even 3streets praying for a fold.

- Players like me. I play every PP. I open alot of hands late position and C-bet on lots of flops. pretty solid play.

It's somethimes hard, cause you got no idea against whom you playing so notes and a keen eye are important.
Probably alot more different players but hey
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 10:36 AM
(#7)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
I don't see how getting your chips in with a set can be considered "donking". With the flop of Tx 6x, assuming it's rainbowed the only hand that has you beat here is TT. Everything else is a draw. So what I believe you really want to know is which types of opponents you want to be aggressive with and which types you should look to set mine against. I'll leave that discussion for a trainer or someone.

What I will show you is a REAL DONK.

Seat 1: bwill1177 ($2.45 in chips)
Seat 2: Joker41673 ($2.19 in chips)
Seat 3: Zyzz69 ($2 in chips)
Seat 10: luccky ($2.21 in chips)
Zyzz69: posts small blind $0.02
luccky: posts big blind $0.04
Dealt to Joker41673 [Jd,Ts]
bwill1177: raises to $0.12
Joker41673: calls $0.12
Zyzz69: folds
luccky: calls $0.08
*** FLOP *** [7h,Js,3d]
luccky: bets $0.12
bwill1177: raises to $0.46
Joker41673: is all in $2.07
luccky: is all in $1.97
bwill1177: folds
luccky: returns uncalled bet $0.02
Joker41673: shows [Jd Ts]
luccky: shows [6s 4s]
*** TURN *** [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [5d]
***SHOW DOWN***
luccky wins $4.65 with Straight Seven high


Notice how luccky calls my post flop shove with nothing but a gut draw and possible runner runner flush? THAT was a donk move, not trying to maximize the chips gained from your flopped set.

 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 11:14 AM
(#8)
Guyguyson's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
The term donking is a bit ambiguous some say it's being a donkey and betting in to someone others say it's just betting in to whoever the aggressor was in the previous street.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 11:59 AM
(#9)
Sentras's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 122
To my knowledge the teerm donking, is if you bet out into the aggressor. No matter what cards you are holding, the nuts or complete air. I just see less value in donking. With such a strong hand.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 12:33 PM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
As Sentras says, a donkbet occurs when the out of position player leads out after calling a raise pre-flop. At nanostakes, it is very often a mistake to do this, especially with value hands, because even most fish know that they are expected to c-bet, especially when it's checked to them in position, but they will often fold if they missed and you indicate you have something.

If you lead out, you give a villain the option of making an easy fold when he missed the flop entirely. (I must have saved a fortune from folding to donkbets on flops I was about to c-bet with my air).

When you have a monster (2pr or a set), there is far more value in checking, and then either calling (on dry boards you think villain missed) or raising (on wet boards you think villain hit).

I prefer to save my (rare) donkbets to situations in which I'm semi-bluffing. e.g. I'm in the blinds and the board comes 984tt. That board hits my perceived range more than the pre-flop opener's. I can donk out (with JT, 76, or even a random Axs) and villain will often fold AJ+.

Set-mining is insanely profitable in the micros. The best way to maximise profit from it is by playing sets completely straightforwardly: Check to the raiser, let him c-bet, then come over the top. Even when it should be "obvious" that you hit a set, microstakes villains find it really hard to fold once they've put in some money on the flop.
To get 100bb stacks in by the river, you have to raise on at least one street. If you donk out, you're not raising, so you'll have trouble winning a whole stack.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 12:42 PM
(#11)
Guyguyson's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
What about weaker hands like TPTK? If you check a hand like that against a nit aren't they more likely to try and hit their set or two pair with a free card on a dry board rather than c-bet?
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 02:32 PM
(#12)
Sentras's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 122
What i've noticed is. If they hit something on the board they C-bet. If they have absolutely nothing, they bet.
If they have showdown value they might check and call you down.

I suggest you play around a little and get used to checking the nuts.
Only donk indeed if you have top pair bad kicker, to protect your hand. But be willing to give it up. But mostly even there I check call. I'm not scared of overcards coming. I'm rather sure of my postflop skills.

Donking mainly as arty explained is to semibluff. An open ender, a flushdraw 2backdoor draws... herby yuo can take either the pot down uncontested. And if they contest you can set yourself up to lose a mediocre pot, but win a big one aswell.
Check raising is also an option, but thats more dangerous play as in inflates the pot ALOT. and as you are out of position you will lose it alot more.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 04:21 PM
(#13)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyguyson View Post
What about weaker hands like TPTK? If you check a hand like that against a nit aren't they more likely to try and hit their set or two pair with a free card on a dry board rather than c-bet?
The pre-flop raiser is unlikely to check behind with a pocket pair in position, because they will be more worried about giving YOU a free card. They only have 2 outs to a set, but (depending on the size of their pair) a third of the deck or more are overcards. In other words, their hand is likely to get (relatively) WORSE on the turn, not better, so they will bet to protect it (and hopefully take down the pot) as soon as possible.

e.g. Lets say you have AJ, villain has 88 and the board is J72.
You have TPTK and villain has 2nd pair.
You can check, and he will most likely bet, because he thinks he has the best hand, and because he doesn't want the turn to bring a 9, 10, J, Q, K or A (that's a lot of cards to hate!) all of which will make the relative strength of his 88 decline.
If you check-call the flop, villain will be unlikely to bet the turn unless he improves, because your call says "I have a jack, so I'm beating 88".

If you'd donked out, then that also says "I have a jack", and villain will often fold, so he won't donate his c-bet to your stack.

Checking behind with a mediocre hand like 88 or 99, after being the pre-flop aggressor is basically giving up on the hand. Villains will c-bet in position almost always on dry flops when you check to them. Exploit this by check-calling made hands on dry boards, and check-raising on wet boards.

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 04:24 PM..
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 06:01 PM
(#14)
Guyguyson's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
Great advice guys, makes perfect sense. I literally had one of those Aha! Moments.
 
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Wed Dec 05, 2012, 09:36 AM
(#15)
Sentras's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 122
Glad we could help!
It inspired me to make a blog about playing pocketpairs. Feel free to read it. Here
 

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