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Blew my last, and some thoughts to debate!

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Blew my last, and some thoughts to debate! - Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:06 PM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hello all, guess what?, no bad luck story I just blew my BR.
7 doller heads up will have that effect on only a possible 2 buyins lol.

Not very good BR management I have got to admit. However, Christmas is close and I want to spend my time with my family, so I just thought I would blow it and either win a lot or lose it all which is what happened.

No problem as next year 2013 I intend to return with hopefully a decent starting BR. That hopefully I will get if I get these login survey details,as I have been accepted for an independant survey about pokerstars that was posted in this forum.
Starts tommorrow though and yet not had details to log into a group discussion.
Oh well it either comes or it doesnt.

So anyway with the survey in mind, and another Holdem topic for debate I have got the simplist of questions.


This will possibly be my last question for a while as Christmas and concentrating hard next year on all that I have learnt including BR management.

So anyway to the poker topic....

Qusetion

We have burn cards in live poker,

However as most probably all ready know in internet poker we have no burn cards.

Burn cards in live poker were created, to make it harder for dealers to cheat etc.

So for example I sit at a nine seater live and the deck is delt

The 3 burn cards although we do not know them possibly take away peoples outs.

Where as its the opposite on the internet,

So to this question, does this by not having the burns cards in effect, give more outs, sort of creating a butterfly effect?

I know from experience on another forum the butterfly in poker is considered as a big taboo, and they feel like its some sort of life and death question lol, where as its a simple question that should hopefully be explained by your great minds with much more complex thinking than they had.

I hope with good sense people will just understand that this is ONLY a debate topic.

Its not me qouting garbage, or me on a rant, it jsut something I have interest in, as I wish to see deep into poker all the inns and outs etc not to be missed.

Thank you I hope even some of you none posters will contribute your thoughts as well.

And merry Christmas all and just spend a few seconds of thought to those worse off than ourselves and think then why bad beats really dont matter.

Gl all its been a pleasure of a year even with its ups and downs.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:17 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
So to this question, does this by not having the burns cards in effect, give more outs, sort of creating a butterfly effect?
NO. The only thing that would change the odds would be for the number of cards in a deck to change. They're all with 52 card decks, so they are IDENTICAL.

John (JWK24)


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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:19 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
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Burn cards do not reduce outs, no more than a card at the bottom end of the deck reduces outs because it can't come on the board. They are simply unseen cards like the rest of the deck.

They aren't so much to prevent dealers from cheating as players, specifically, marked cards, so if a deck was marked the player who knew the marks wouldn't know what card was coming next (they might know what was going to be burned, but that's not nearly as useful as knowing the actual board card coming).


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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:23 PM
(#4)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi JW , I all ready understand that the odds would stay the same from a different debate I had on another forum.

The odds I can not say alters no matter how I look at it.

But for example In live poker, The flop is dealt starting with the second card of the remaining deck, the first card been a burn card correct?

Where as internet poker, the flop is dealt using the first card with no burn cards.

The burn cards takes away a possible out for the players in the pot, not always but we can presume it does.

Therefore I see it as 3 extra out is this not the case?
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:26 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
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No, it is not the case.


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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:26 PM
(#6)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Burn cards do not reduce outs, no more than a card at the bottom end of the deck reduces outs because it can't come on the board. They are simply unseen cards like the rest of the deck.

They aren't so much to prevent dealers from cheating as players, specifically, marked cards, so if a deck was marked the player who knew the marks wouldn't know what card was coming next (they might know what was going to be burned, but that's not nearly as useful as knowing the actual board card coming).
Hi dave how can burn cards not reduce the outs by 3 i just dont get it at all if it does not

Its 3 less cards?
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:32 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
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An unseen card is an unseen card, period. If you have a flush draw you don't know if your 9 flush outs are in other peoples hands, a burn card, the bottom of the deck (won't come to the board), or in a position to hit the board. Unseen is unseen, being in a burn position does not reduce the outs. By the logic you're trying to apply it's like saying 9 people dealt in is 18 cards that can't come on the board, 3 burn cards can't come, and after the board cards the remaining 26 cards from the bottom of the deck can't come either so those aren't outs! Faulty logic. Unseen is unseen and thus could potentially come on the board.


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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:40 PM
(#8)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Intersting logic Dave, but can you honestly say that the 3 burns have no effect on the hand?

Example hand

AK v AJ v 68s

Ace first burn card out the deck, yes we dont know its an ace but thats one ace less.

The 68 then is surely the favourite with more outs?

Im not trying to argue the point across or anything like that, I just want to understand as I cant see the logic in saying theres no difference.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:52 PM
(#9)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Intersting logic Dave, but can you honestly say that the 3 burns have no effect on the hand?

Example hand

AK v AJ v 68s

Ace first burn card out the deck, yes we dont know its an ace but thats one ace less.

The 68 then is surely the favourite with more outs?

Im not trying to argue the point across or anything like that, I just want to understand as I cant see the logic in saying theres no difference.
but the ace could just as well be on the bottom of the deck and we would never see it. using your logic, that would be one less out as well. just b/c it's burned, we have no way of knowing that it was burned, thus it has the same state as any other unseen card. only if cards were burned face up would they have the state that you're suggesting they have.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 01:58 PM
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EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Intersting logic Dave, but can you honestly say that the 3 burns have no effect on the hand?

Example hand

AK v AJ v 68s

Ace first burn card out the deck, yes we dont know its an ace but thats one ace less.

The 68 then is surely the favourite with more outs?

Im not trying to argue the point across or anything like that, I just want to understand as I cant see the logic in saying theres no difference.
Hi Holdemace - I think the crux is that we don't know its an ace or not. We can't say that it IS an ace 'but we don't know', that is a paradox. We will never know what a burn card is, or was, or will be, so we can never take account of its actual physical identity. We count all the unseen cards as potential outs.

I think of that burn card like Schrodingers cat - if we don't ever look we can't ever know its current status in reality.

Ed


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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 02:00 PM
(#11)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Yes I completely see your point ketchup and good logic in defense against what im thinking, but I still can not see this as logical.

The burns take away 3 cards, thats 3 cards that can not come out in the community, its in fact a 49 card deck in live if ii i can say that with a mutiple calculation I could not work out of the variations of those 3 cards that are burnt.
Is that not correct, so therefore by having those 3 extra cards that creates again a multiple variation calculation extra? in the deck therefore explaining simple as the butterfly effect?
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 02:01 PM
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mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Wow.. would it make you happier if they placed the burn card at the bottom of the deck, as opposed to on the table? Those cards are also unseen and also can never hit the board. What about all the cards that were dealt out, then mucked? Are they then too "less outs"? No they are just unseen cards like any other unseen cards.


May the tinfoil protect you. MT
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 02:09 PM
(#13)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
Wow.. would it make you happier if they placed the burn card at the bottom of the deck, as opposed to on the table? Those cards are also unseen and also can never hit the board. What about all the cards that were dealt out, then mucked? Are they then too "less outs"? No they are just unseen cards like any other unseen cards.
Ok again great logic, I will put it another way does it or does it not alter the shuffle by having no burn cards?

The answer is no the shuffle is the same and always random

Does it alter the deal?

The answer is yes obviously

SO does something alter in the game?

well thats what im trying to discover

I understand all your views clearly, and this is not a get them post as I know the poker world cannot see this.
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 02:20 PM
(#14)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Yes the board "not the deal" is altered but has ZERO effect on how you should look at how to play your hand. And 68 is still not a favorite as it "has" to hit to win. And AK does not. whether there be burn cards or not. 68 has more outs but AK doesn't need "outs"


May the tinfoil protect you. MT
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 02:35 PM
(#15)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
Yes the board "not the deal" is altered but has ZERO effect on how you should look at how to play your hand. And 68 is still not a favorite as it "has" to hit to win. And AK does not. whether there be burn cards or not. 68 has more outs but AK doesn't need "outs"
Yes the 68 was just an example, im not really looking at playing my hands any different, just trying curious like all year.

So ok the deals not altered, hows this when im getting the top card on the internet but i get the second card live?

And you say the board is different.

So in reality you are not getting your own board you were meant to have as such.

To me i can not see it as any other way, there is something else i could add for my defense of thinking but I do not want to start on about randomness squared.

I see the reality of poker as the cards can be explained as the butterfly effect,that is why we calculate variance by the means of result as the cards have too many variants to be calculated.

extra cards in the deck does increase players outs, as cards are in the deck that would be possibly burnt.

This and the fact that i will not mention as indeed created "chaos" theory.

Hard to prove and hard to see......

The strangest thing though is it probably does not matter...

as its still a game of randomness, and the odds stay the same,

I just thought this would be a good talking point and i thank you all for your great help and thoughts...

Last edited by holdemace486; Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 02:45 PM..
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 02:45 PM
(#16)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Do burn cards alter the way the board would run out without burn cards? ABSOLUTELY.
Does this have ANY effect on how you should play your hand, or the way you calculate odds/ outs? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Have fun butterfly..


May the tinfoil protect you. MT
 
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Tue Dec 04, 2012, 02:47 PM
(#17)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Lol mt and yes you can see I do get it regardless of how you look at poker.

Last edited by holdemace486; Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 02:49 PM..
 
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Wed Dec 05, 2012, 08:07 PM
(#18)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
So ok the deals not altered, hows this when im getting the top card on the internet but i get the second card live?

Read more: Blew my last, and some thoughts to debate! - PokerSchoolOnline Forum http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...#ixzz2EEIBq9Wy


2 separate shuffles so unless you know the order of cards is the same in the live deck and the online deck. then it matters not if a card is burnt or not.


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Wed Dec 05, 2012, 10:49 PM
(#19)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
If you spent as much time studying the game as you do worrying about these weird theories, you might learn something.

 
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Wed Dec 05, 2012, 11:29 PM
(#20)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
I wouldn't call it "weird." Let's be honest, the reason why there are so many people accepting the idea of a conspiracy can be traced to the missing dealer in internet poker. Like holdem said, we see the dealer, we see the shuffle, we know that in the local card room or casino, the deal is honest. What do we see online? Cards flying around.

PokerStars opened their RNG to review, and that's gone a long way to dispelling such conspiracies. I don't remember which site it was, but their selling point was a reshuffle at every street. Players want to know they have a reasonable chance at winning. An honest deal goes a long way to assuring that.

As others have said, burning cards does not affect the outcome of a game. They are never known. When the deal ends, all the cards are shuffled. The math of poker is based on what you know, which is your hand and the board. Nothing else.

Again, burning cards is to protect the game's integrity. If somebody marked the deck, knowing the burn card might be a help, but the card isn't played. Without somebody offering us constant assurances, online gaming will always have an integrity problem.

One valid point has been made. This thread diverts attention away from the real problem. Like it or not, holdem has problems with poker. He admits to tilt. That's a good start. However, it doesn't go any further than a cosmetic fix.

Have you studied your hand histories? Pot calling the kettle black, but I haven't. How about reading books on poker? Last book I read, three years back, and not on poker. What is the name of the last video you watched? Cannot name it, but it was on SNG just before Black Friday. How about a study group? I don't have the computer smarts to join most of these groups and as an American, wouldn't be welcomed. Summation, I'm as guilty as holdem for not finding ways of improving my game.

I too would love to offer personalized help to holdem, but I have a feeling it would be spurned. Something tells me he either wants somebody to feed his wild conspiracy theories, or cannot accept the real possibility the problem is with the man in the mirror. Like the addict, until you accept the idea of personal responsibility, there will never be progress.

Id it any wonder that so many of these postings become the focus of ridicule?
 

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