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5NL - TPTK on drawy board 3 way action

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5NL - TPTK on drawy board 3 way action - Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:55 AM
(#1)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi there,

Another sticky spot I ran into a few hands ago; not sure what to make of this. I think calling is bad so Fold or Shove?

BB in unknown
UTG is 12/8/2 (213 hands)

Not sure if there would be reason to 3bet AQo on the BTN against a nitty dude opening UTG, I think it's too slim. So lets see a flop...

 
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Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:08 AM
(#2)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
also is raising flop bad? does anything good come from flatting the flop instead?
 
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Tue Dec 11, 2012, 12:32 PM
(#3)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
I agree: with a 12% VPIP, you can assume he's not gonna fold to a 3bet preflop. He's not monkeying around. You're in position, so a flat would be my choice. It's unfortunate the BB hops along, but he did get priced in.

You might consider a 3bet jsut to get headsup with the nit: there's a decent chance he will fold to a c-bet if he misses the flop. C-betting with nothing is always easier against 1 opponent.

FLOP
-----
We hit top pair. The opponents could be holding some flush draws, and a pair is always an option. Because I didn't raise prelop, I'm completely lost where I am. maybe the preflop 3-bet was the better of the options.

As such, the villain bets and I haven't a clue. There's a good chance my Queens are ahead, but I'm not closing the action. The Big could have anything. So now what: call-fold if the Big 3-bets, or raise-fold to a 3-bet. Or raise-and-take-it. I once heard people say it's better to err on the side of aggression. I'd reluctantly make a 60 cent raise here. If I get called I check/fold the turn unless I hit a set, if I get 3-bet I fold right here.

You go for the raise as well. Same train of thought?

Yikes, the Big shoves. Well, so much for that idea. No chance my queens are good here. Exit, stage right. Especially with the UTG guy calling the bet.

Wonder what happened next. I hope you mucked.
 
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Tue Dec 11, 2012, 12:35 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi geo,

The UTG opener is really nitty, actually I think we need to be aware that calling him preflop with AQo is not profitable on hand value as AQo does not play well against his nitty range. 8% PFR over all situations so UTG open is probably more like 5-6% tops, which equates to like 99+ and AQo+, AJs+. We're a pretty significant underdog to this range and our holding is easily dominated (QQ+, AK is about half of this total range). So folding to his open pre, while it may sound nitty on the surface, is a fine option here as this is not a steller situation. We can make this call profitable if the opener can be exploited post flop, on this depth of money (144bb's effective) this most likely means using our position and a high spr to take the pot away on boards he doesn't like. Not sure the info given makes it clear he can be exploited post flop but probably can be in this manner, just so long as we're clear that without such a read AQo is totally ok to just fold to this nits UTG open. Never 3B pre here imo with the info as given. When you say "I think it's too slim" that indicates to me that you may be placing too high a hand value to AQo in this situation.

On the flop I would always flat here. Raising will only fold out the worse hands in his range, 99-JJ, AJs, AK, all of which are way behind us at this point, while continuing to get action from QQ+ and AQ, a range against which we're smashed. As per what I stated above, I am still not excited about our hand value, but we have pulled ahead of some of his UTG opening range and we have picked up some hand equity, especially against KK where we can catch a Q or A to pull ahead, plus a back door nut flush draw, plus the potential for the board to run out scary for him, so I think this is a flat and see how the hand develops.

After your raise once the action comes back to you this is a super easy fold imo. Not really sure what V3's range is considering his stack size, but he can easily be ahead of us. He's not the big concern though, the UTG nit is. He's been raised and reraise-jammed on for 78bb's on the flop and he doesn't care, he's still putting money in. I can't see us ever being ahead of him at this point.


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Tue Dec 11, 2012, 04:14 PM
(#5)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Spot on Dave! It's very clear now. Thanks!
 
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Tue Dec 11, 2012, 04:17 PM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
hey Ov3rsight. Almost the same train of thought
I did end up taking the line of "f it" shove. UTG had 22.
 
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Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:47 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
hey Ov3rsight. Almost the same train of thought
I did end up taking the line of "f it" shove. UTG had 22.
The UTG nit had 22? Or V3 had 22?

That's a wider open that I'd have expected from this guy UTG. I'd make a note on him that he opens all pocket pairs regardless of position.


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Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:33 AM
(#8)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
The UTG nit had 22? Or V3 had 22?

That's a wider open that I'd have expected from this guy UTG. I'd make a note on him that he opens all pocket pairs regardless of position.
note well taken
 

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