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Effective stack size, when to push.

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Effective stack size, when to push. - Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:52 PM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
I keep promising myself I will not post, xmas is coming, but of late I have gone poker studying hard.

A lack in the ability to sleep, and whilst reading a few posts, the thought came to mind of effective stack sizes and when to push in a tourney.<effective stack is the short stack>.

The often rule is 10bb, and there is a reason for this.

There are several basic fundamentals to consider.

1.Position in tournement

2.player stack sizes <we want to be trying to push on a average size stack>.

3.If i fold, will I have enough blinds left to scare anyone off

4.Am I pushing on a tight player or will he/she likely to make the call

Just a few thoughts and I hope it helps some off you..
 
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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:22 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Hi holdem!

It also depends on the type of tourney and standings in a tourney too.

Especially if in a satellite or league game (will wait for a lower number to start to shove) or may not shove at all, if it is a satty and I have enough chips to cash.

In a league game, especially if early.. it's better to last longer and blind out than to ever shove a marginal hand.

If in a turbo, then I'm upping that number from 10 to 15-20.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:49 AM
(#3)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Thanks Jw, that as enhanced what I meant with number 1, position in tournement.

 
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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:44 PM
(#4)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
I keep promising myself I will not post, xmas is coming, but of late I have gone poker studying hard.

A lack in the ability to sleep, and whilst reading a few posts, the thought came to mind of effective stack sizes and when to push in a tourney.<effective stack is the short stack>.

The often rule is 10bb, and there is a reason for this.

There are several basic fundamentals to consider.

1.Position in tournement

2.player stack sizes <we want to be trying to push on a average size stack>.

3.If i fold, will I have enough blinds left to scare anyone off

4.Am I pushing on a tight player or will he/she likely to make the call

Just a few thoughts and I hope it helps some off you..


I'm curious that you're espousing what you are here and yet in another thread you're questioning a player for shipping at less than 3M in a tournament with a hand like AQo.

Methinks you need to nose to grindstone on this more. A lot more.
 
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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:06 PM
(#5)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
10BB's is an unwritten rule but seems to be something set in stone for most. Can you induce a fold with a shove should be a more pertinent question.
 
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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:55 PM
(#6)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hey oval good point, yes its sort of what I mean, is 10bb going to be enough at times to get that fold that often we want.

Thats why in number one , consider position in tournement,as JW enhanced,
is important.

I dont just consider my own player standings, but also average stacks,itm positions etc.

I wrote this post Moxie after commenting on those hands.

I did not feel the push on the aq was needed at that time, and in that position.

I feel if im low stack but in the itm and the chip leaders are way ahead, it is more conservative and better play to climb the itm ladder, and push only when theres no other option left.AS you know and everyone knows, its not impossible but unlikely you are coming back to win from low stack.
So damage limitations is sometimes the best play.
 
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Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:46 AM
(#7)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Hey oval good point, yes its sort of what I mean, is 10bb going to be enough at times to get that fold that often we want.

Thats why in number one , consider position in tournement,as JW enhanced,
is important.

I dont just consider my own player standings, but also average stacks,itm positions etc.

I wrote this post Moxie after commenting on those hands.

I did not feel the push on the aq was needed at that time, and in that position.

I feel if im low stack but in the itm and the chip leaders are way ahead, it is more conservative and better play to climb the itm ladder, and push only when theres no other option left.AS you know and everyone knows, its not impossible but unlikely you are coming back to win from low stack.
So damage limitations is sometimes the best play.

It IS impossible if you get short and start folding hands like AQo.
 
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Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:42 AM
(#8)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
I keep promising myself I will not post, xmas is coming, but of late I have gone poker studying hard.

A lack in the ability to sleep, and whilst reading a few posts, the thought came to mind of effective stack sizes and when to push in a tourney.<effective stack is the short stack>.

The often rule is 10bb, and there is a reason for this.

There are several basic fundamentals to consider.

1.Position in tournement

2.player stack sizes <we want to be trying to push on a average size stack>.

3.If i fold, will I have enough blinds left to scare anyone off

4.Am I pushing on a tight player or will he/she likely to make the call


Just a few thoughts and I hope it helps some off you..
The reason the 10bb point works well is the risk vs reward. When you are at 10bb our stack still has some fold equity and any du you get not only gets you 20bb but keeps you alive longer as well.

The reason we shove isn't just to get a double up but also to steal the blinds. With antes and a full ring, the antes and blinds can be jus over 3bb and you only need to push 3 times and get folds for an effective double up. Also, by stealing one blind yo can stay alive for 1 more round when yo might pickup aces.

However you shove at 20bb you risking a lot of chips for a double up. The risk isn't worth it where even if you sat on your hands you could survive 4 rounds and about 20-36 hands and pickup a better hand to gain value on the flop.

Remember if someone calls a shove most of the time unless they are desperate, they have a hand. So KK vs Aq might seem a good gamble preflop, if the flop comes with an ace or broadway cards or a,4flush... It's not as good and something can get away from.

We don't play bingo, we ideally want to see the river on each hand and be able to make a decision there. If the river comes and we have a top 3 nut hand... Chances are we want to go broke but if we did the same with a monster on the flop that got diluted or a hand thwe made later on at the river, then it's different.

That being said sometimes you have to gamble your hand is good at each decision point and each one further from the river is more of a risk than the,other.

So in summary... Preflop shoves without a top 3 hand are not going to pay off as much in the long run so yo really oly wan o be making them when you have no choice... AK preflop might seem nice but you only have 6 cards to help you... Compare this to any rag flush hand which has 11 cards preflop to help him!

Just be careful not to risk it all if you don't have the top 3 nuts at ay decision point unless you can justify I ... Ie big stack, good,opponent read, short stack because overall shoving gets you no value in the long term because you are onl getting called with better
 
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Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:44 PM
(#9)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
good post baud
 
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Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:25 PM
(#10)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi holdem!

It also depends on the type of tourney and standings in a tourney too.

...

If in a turbo, then I'm upping that number from 10 to 15-20.

John (JWK24)
If your in a turbo, why up? I've found that in turbos, there is a higher rate of attrition, so that would decrease the size of a what can be considered a short stack and increase how long you could wait until shoving.
Or am I just thinking the wrong way round?


'Cause I have done it before and I can do it some more I got my eye on the score'
 
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Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:20 PM
(#11)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
As someone who plays turbo I can count 2 BB's an effective stack at times to shove.

I mentioned before, you need to know who's to act after you whether you shove or not. I'll 100% shove any monster if I've less than 10BBs but I'll also shove decent hands and sometimes rags. You really need to know who's to come after you and whether there's any players already in the pot (and the likelyhood of them calling)

There's no written rule on shoving/ folding. You need to adapt it to every player but also to your table. If you've been playing loose aggressive then there's no point shoving KJs as your opponents will think you have rags and will call you with a raggy A. Similarly if you've been a rock then you can get away with a shove with any 2 assuming your opponents don't wake up with a monster. Position and cards mean a lot.

The hands you win without a showdown will win you the most amount of chips so you want to be shoving without a showdown.
 

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