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5NL - was this a bad shove?

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5NL - was this a bad shove? - Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:18 PM
(#1)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Both villians in this hand are unknowns.
The SB min 3bets my UTG open which I think is very fishy (I don't know what a min 3bet really means... mostly I see ppl do it with AA/KK) the main reason why I did not 4bet as I keep running into Aces everytime someone min 3bets and I 4bet/call a shove with KK.

BB comes along and decides to donk bet the flop. I flat to see what the SB will do. BB could be leading here with TP, heart draw, or over pairs TT/JJ. I assume AA/KK would have 4bet pre. and any set would have more likely c/r the flop. So I'm ruling out all his monsters here and putting him on medium strength hands or a semi-bluff.

Once the SB folds, I'm more comfortable with the strength of my hand

The BB takes another stab at the pot. My line of thought here is that the 7 could have improved his hand somehow so I decide to shove figuring TT/JJ will never fold here and to protect my hand. Was this a bad shove?

 
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Mon Dec 17, 2012, 08:01 AM
(#2)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
looks like a good time to shove. maybe he flopped a set. or has the stright, or smaller over pair naw no over pair smaller than u . think he out flopped u. the donk flop and turn looks bad 4 u. but u thought u had the best hand your call would have made the pot more than his stack, so in my mind its fold or not fold becouse pot will be to big to fold if u make the call. what i think but what do i know. i am a super fish
 
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Mon Dec 17, 2012, 08:23 AM
(#3)
jamesthefish's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 30
Hi Geo,

I agree, tough spot. I would agree with a lot of your deductions - he should never have KK / AA here.

You have a very wet flop, so its hard to know where you are at here. We are beating JJ / 1010 / Ah8h / similar drawing hands, but are behind to 22 / 88 / 99.

On such a wet board, I would donk out into the raiser had I flopped a set - especially with 3 players still involved.

The scariest part for me is that the 7 makes a lot of hands, yet the villain still leads for his 2/3 pot bet. This suggests to me that he has a made hand as opposed to a heart / combo draw. Obviously J-10 just got there too.

You essentially have 2 options - shove or fold and without much information I think I make a tough laydown and look for a better spot.

Cheers,

James
 
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Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:33 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi all,

Interesting spot, the talk about donk betting and check-raising with a set don't really work here... remember the most likely player to bet is the final preflop aggressor (c-betting) but in this case that's V2 and he's already checked. V3 could very well take over the lead with TT/JJ, 2 pair+, or any draws.

On the turn I'm not fully prepared to fold tbh, as this is a card he may barrel with worse hands like AhTh, T9s, TT, Th8h... obviously 2 pair+ are barreling as well. But I think it may be a bit better to just call again and see how the river proceeds rather than jam. If we jam he may well get all those in but the only hands he's ever folding (if any) would be ones we're beating anyway. If we call on the river he's not likely to jam for 3.08 without a better hand imo, so when we're winning we get to jam blank rivers then and he check-calls unimproved JJ and TT hands since he can snap busted draws that are bluffing. If he just jams the river we can pretty safely fold imo. And some of the hands that are destroying us, like sets for example, will check scary rivers to us and allow us to show down our loser saving $3.08.

With reads I might do something totally different but in a vacuum this is a reasonable line imo.


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Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:22 AM
(#5)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
He folded to my shove and wrote in chat: "idiot! call and I shove river" Don't know if that meant he was on a bluff and was willing to continue bluffing with a shove on the river or if he was just full of bull
 
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Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:29 AM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
You'd be wise to not put any stock in anything someone says in chat generally about their hand, especially when they're calling you an idiot. Almost to a person these are losing players anyway.


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