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2nl Zoom - AJo BvB vs unknown.

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2nl Zoom - AJo BvB vs unknown. - Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:01 PM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Pre flop and the flop are standard, however on the turn I'm unsure what is the best play. Is betting for value okay or should I have checked behind to get value on the river either through calling a bet or making one if checked to?

Also once check raised should I make a fold? Looking back there are no hands that i'm ahead of that make sense, unless he is doing this with complete air. When he continues to fire on the river are we always looking at 2 pair plus?

Thanks for any help

Oliver


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Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:13 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Hey Croyd

So hard to know in the blinds, when the ranges are always so wide, eh?

I struggle with that too - the only difference being that I think my tendency is to call too often on the river rather than not enough? Kind of a pricey way to get confirmation that I'm calling too wide when I so often wind up facing a better hand ... yikes


Thought it'd be fun to share/compare this hand with yours, that was similar in terms of the betting, if not the board (except I got check-raised on the flop and not the turn). So unsure where I stood when that happened since the villain limp-called ... it seemed like they could have so easily had 99 or J9, so those two hands were foremost in my mind. I guess ranging wasn't too far off ...

Click to show hidden text





I never remember to include this in my ranging until after-the-fact, but I guess bluffers are maybe responding to what they perceive us to NOT have, as opposed to what we do? Like the sb for me must have been thinking that it was so unlikely for me to have the J or the 9 to raise how they did?

With your hand though ... I don't know ... you think maybe there's not much room for you to have had anything less than an A since you raised 2 streets and called the reraise on such a dry board? I'd still probably call though - so cool to be able to fold like you did if you did I think.

But I don't know ... still trying to figure it all out like you ... frustrating but still lots of fun, eh?

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 08:22 PM..
 
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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:16 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
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Hi Oliver,

BvB spots sometimes get funky. Without reads I will generally check back either the flop or turn here and go for 2 streets of value (this induces some bluffs, light value bets by worse hands, and lighter call downs).

Normally it's a safe fold to a turn check-raise, but blind vs. blind gets funky and the ranges are wide like Sam said.

On the river I would call him here... his bet sizing is small enough that I think he can show up with worse aces trying to get thin value but not confident enough to bet big, or a busted draw trying an inexpensive bluff. He could have 2 pair+ of course but once we called the turn check-raise I'd think those hands would like to make a bigger bet for value, like in the .90-$1.40 range not .58c.



@Sam, I really like the way you played your hand. This is in fact a board texture that is not very likely to hit you and likely looks scary to most of your range, i.e. it's a good board to bluff and semi-bluff. Sure he can have 99 or J9 but those are a very small part of an overall wide range that includes air and draws and worse made hands. Flatting the check-raise is a play I like here, allow him to continue "value betting" worse made hands or bluffing to get value from his entire bluff range. Turn heart, maybe he made a flush (but we have a lot of outs to draw out on that), again flatting in position rather than raising I like... it avoids us stacking off while drawing the times he's ahead, and allows him to bluff one more time on the river when he's not. The only thing I might have done differently is bet for value on the end. The fact that he checked to you means he probably has some kind of showdown value hand that is not very strong. If he was very strong (boats, flushes) he's likely betting the river, and if he has no showdown value at all (like 5c6c) then he has to bet the river to win the pot. So either he's completely giving up on a stone bluff and conceding the pot, or he's got a showdown value type hand like 9x or a pocket pair (or a deuce as the case actually was lol). Granted I'm a thin river value bettor in general, but I think this is a nice spot to give him a chance to be the sheriff and make a hero call.


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 01:20 AM..
 
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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:29 AM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post

@Sam, I really like the way you played your hand. This is in fact a board texture that is not very likely to hit you and likely looks scary to most of your range, i.e. it's a good board to bluff and semi-bluff. Sure he can have 99 or J9 but those are a very small part of an overall wide range that includes air and draws and worse made hands. Flatting the check-raise is a play I like here, allow him to continue "value betting" worse made hands or bluffing to get value from his entire bluff range. Turn heart, maybe he made a flush (but we have a lot of outs to draw out on that), again flatting in position rather than raising I like... it avoids us stacking off while drawing the times he's ahead, and allows him to bluff one more time on the river when he's not. The only thing I might have done differently is bet for value on the end. The fact that he checked to you means he probably has some kind of showdown value hand that is not very strong. If he was very strong (boats, flushes) he's likely betting the river, and if he has no showdown value at all (like 5c6c) then he has to bet the river to win the pot. So either he's completely giving up on a stone bluff and conceding the pot, or he's got a showdown value type hand like 9x or a pocket pair (or a deuce as the case actually was lol). Granted I'm a thin river value bettor in general, but I think this is a nice spot to give him a chance to be the sheriff and make a hero call.

Thanks for analyzing my hand too Dave


LESSONS:


1. Board textures that (a) are hard for anybody to have connected with, and (b) look like they might have missed the opponent's range, are not only good boards for the person in position to cbet but might also be good boards for the person out of position to check-raise.

Especially ripe for this type of check-raise might be a paired board that's draw-heavy, as a semi-bluff.


When including bluffs in your ranging - be sure to be specific about the type of bluff ... is it:
a) air
b) draws
c) worse made hands?



2. Extracting maximum value out of bluffers:

a) in position - the line I took of just calling the check-raise was because I was worried about being behind (... Q2o lol). But it's also a good line to take when you suspect you might be ahead - as the best way to get the person with the worst hand (who could even be bluffing with air) to continue to put money in the pot on future streets.

And the line I took of just calling the c-bet on the turn was also because I was worried about being behind. But I guess that's the ideal line to take when you could be either ahead or behind (with outs to improve by the river).


b) out of position - since there's the risk a villain who's bluffing might exercise the option to check behind and see a free card, you have to treat this situation differently, and keep betting to make sure we don't lose a street of value. And hopefully they try to float in hopes of bluffing on a later street, or have a hand with sdv that they're willing to continue with.



3. Going for thin value on the river (totally missed the boat on this one due to my bad ranging :/) - if raises are getting smaller with each street, and the villain is checking by the river, that usually means

a) They were on a draw that's missed, and they've given up, or
b) Have some sort of weakish hand with some showdown value, that might be willing to call a small river bet - worth a shot!

(Note that a flush or boat would have raised the river, so we can rule those out as unlikely in this case)

EDIT: Bet sizing should vary depending on whether we think we're up against a bluffer with air who might be tempted to take one last crack at the pot, or a semi-bluffer who has a hand with sdv - bet size should be smaller for the former, and larger for the latter ... all the way up to a shove (since it's about pot-sized, and maybe looks a little bluffy)



So much great info I never considered - really helpful ... ty ty!!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 05:07 PM..
 
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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:07 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Thanks for analyzing my hand too Dave
You're welcome!

Quote:
3. Also, the line I took of just calling the check-raise was because I was worried about being behind (... Q2o lol). But it's also a good line to take when you suspect you might be ahead - as the best way to get the person with the worst hand to continue to put money in the pot on future streets.

And the line I took of just calling the c-bet on the turn was also because I was worried about being behind. But I guess that's the ideal line to take when you could be either ahead or behind (with outs to improve by the river).
This is a nice line when a villain has a lot of bluffs in his range... hands that have really bad equity (in the case of this actual hand, the worst, zero equity on the turn), and will just fold to an aggressive action by us. It really adds a lot of value letting all those bluffs continue to put in low/no equity money. Especially in position with a strong hand like ours, where the opponent can't exercise an option to take a free card on draws or pot control showdown value hands by checking behind us on the turn... in position if he checks, we can just bet and not let a betting round go away.


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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:10 AM
(#6)
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Okay ... had to read that a couple of times - I think it's sunk in now ... will add the extra details to my summary now, thanks!!
 
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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:15 AM
(#7)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
With your hand though ... I don't know ... you think maybe there's not much room for you to have had anything less than an A since you raised 2 streets and called the reraise on such a dry board? I'd still probably call though - so cool to be able to fold like you did if you did I think.

But I don't know ... still trying to figure it all out like you ... frustrating but still lots of fun, eh?
I think you give me too much credit for being able to fold Sam. Definately agree that it still lots of fun though, yesterday I made a stupid call even though my head was screaming 'nooo he has a wheel!'. Sure enough he did and I felt like a station but I had to smile as I got it right even if I haven't completely learnt to fold yet.

In spots like this when I get raised on the turn and don't feel I can fold yet I try to decide on what I will do on the river before I put any more money in the pot. In this spot I decided that he could make a stab here with air and would maybe c/r the turn with worse aces. I decided that I would check back the river if given the option but set myself a 'calling budget' of 70c.

I think the lesson learnt from this hand is to check baack the turn (or flop) with a 1 pair hand that I'm not comfortable with when facing a lot of heat.

In the end up I called and he showed A9 which made perfect sense, I kinda felt like I'd been outplayed and perhaps should have folded on the turn but BvB it's sometimes hard to find the fold button.

I really like your hand Sam, you played it very well keeping his range as wide as possible. I like Dave's point about value betting the river and think that this is a good spot to do so. However I was thinking about how much to bet and got a bit carried away so have a few more questions for you Dave.

In Sam's hand what is the best amount to bet? If I was in this spot I think I would bet under a third of the pot , probably between 80c-$1, as I think that it can get called by the most hands. However such a small bet could be interpreted as weakness and get raised by the opponent. If he was to raise should/can we call? It doesn't really make sense for him to show up with a hand that beats us. Sure he can but mainly his line looks like a bluff.

Thanks for all the help and advice

Oliver


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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:30 AM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:21 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
In Sam's hand what is the best amount to bet? If I was in this spot I think I would bet under a third of the pot , probably between 80c-$1, as I think that it can get called by the most hands. However such a small bet could be interpreted as weakness and get raised by the opponent. If he was to raise should/can we call? It doesn't really make sense for him to show up with a hand that beats us. Sure he can but mainly his line looks like a bluff.
If I thought he was more likely to be giving up on a bluff, I would favor a small bet that might induce him to take one more shot at it by check-raise shoving (and plan to call the shove obv). If I thought he was more likely to have a showdown value hand, I actually like shoving since it's only about a pot sized bet. If he wants to be the hero, this is a nice price tag to attached to it. If we bet over half the pot and he hero's us, it's close enough that he'll probably hero us for the whole thing.

In this situation I lean a bit towards the big bet without more reads, but either line can be fine.


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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 04:19 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
However such a small bet could be interpreted as weakness and get raised by the opponent. If he was to raise should/can we call? It doesn't really make sense for him to show up with a hand that beats us. Sure he can but mainly his line looks like a bluff.
Sorry, my mind kind of went blank before ...


Anyways ... maybe since I raised pre and post-flop, then called two of their bets, if they were to check the river and I were to raise only a small amount, it would look strong? Since the board's paired and there's 3 to a flush, and the river was a brick - like maybe I would only do that with a trip, flush or boat? Which, if I haven't folded with yet, I'm not likely to no matter how big a check-raise I was going to face?

So if I got check-raised ... probably even I would fold I think ... but I seem to be making some progress in that department. Hopefully that wouldn't be the wrong thing to do (fold)? :/


You ask lots of interesting questions with the hands u post Croyd - thanks for posting all these tricky spots ... I learn a lot from them!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 04:38 PM..
 

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