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badbones141

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badbones141 - Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:42 PM
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Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 33
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

here's a crazy gamble... my read was that I just "felt" he missed?


 
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Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:36 PM
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Hi badbones141!

What kind of tournament is this from? The answer to this could have an effect on my answer. Please always include this information and also any reads on the opps, as those will help to get you a better answer.

With 89s, I'm in the SB and have a raise to 25 in front of me. The first thing with this hand is that I'm out of position, which is a HUGE disadvantage.
If I call, I have to put 200 chips into a pot that will be 600 (33%). Here is when a read on the opp would help. I need this information to go to pokerstove to see if my hand has 33% equity. If I do, then I can call. If I don't, then I need to muck.
IF I am only up against the initial raiser, I need to have them playing a range wider than 10% to make this a call. HOWEVER, I still have the BB to act.
If I start the first opp at a 20% range (my normal starting point for an opp with no read), then even if the BB is playing 100% of hands, it is a -EV play to call.

Due to this, unless I am 100% certain that the BB will fold, I do not have the correct odds to play 89s initially and need to muck and look for a better situation.

The BB now raises to 800 and the initial raiser folds. I now have to call 550 into a pot of 1850 (29.7%). To make this be an even play, I would need to have the opp 3-betting more than a top 6% hand. However, I'm still out of position. Due to position, I need to have the opp be 3-betting a much wider range, as due to being out of position, even if I hit the flop, I have absolutely no clue whether I'm ahead or behind. Due to this, I'm also mucking to the raise.

The flop gives me 2nd pair. If I think he missed (especially if I raise pre), then I'm going to make a 1/2 pot lead bet for value here. I do NOT want to be check/calling out of position. I won't know if I'm ahead or behind, as I get no information from the opp at all.

The turn is identical to the flop. Either lead or fold to their bet, I would basically never check/call.

Same on the river. If I think I'm good, then I should have bet all the streets, not check/raise the river. The only thing that a check/raise does here is to say that I have a Q, but a Q should never call a flop nor turn bet unless it's QQ, that should have raised preflop. Having a Q here does not make sense.

From the SB in a situation like this, I'm going to either 3-bet or fold for my initial play (folding the overwhelming majority of the time) and if I raise, I will lead the flop. Playing too many hands out of position, especially from the SB (because it looks cheaper due to having chips in the pot already) is one of, if not the largest chip leak that most players have. Calling preflop, instead of taking the initiative will be a huge chip leak over time and is a play that I do not want to make, the same as check/calling the flop/turn. If I think I'm ahead, then I wan tot take the initiative and lead bet, not check/call.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

P.S. If this is a league game, then it's an instant fold preflop, as I do not want to ever play a marginal hand in any position early in a tourney.


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thank you - Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:08 AM
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Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 33
this was my 1st time posting a few hands using hand replayer and never would have been possible without learning how to from the million club

in the future I will include more info so as to help with any analysis

this was a premier hand and I had a read of my opponent as aggressive and bluffy... maybe a LAG player

my thoughts during the hand were to take a chance with a marginal hand to see if I could hit a flop and was willing to pay 3x the blind to do so... miss the flop and I'm out

the initial raise was 2.5x so I decided to call hoping to see a flop... the reraise looked like a squeeze to me and I thought if he had something good why scare off 2 customers

so I made a "bad" call still hoping to hit str8 or fl draws

once I saw the flop I figured "if I hit maybe he missed" and I also was thinking he must of read me as TAG since this is my first time "straying" from that style in this premier game so what did he put me on???

again I agree with bad calls from out of position will cost in the long run but I rarely do this... plus I'm getting committed to the hand and when that turn seemed to help me more than him giving me a gut shot draw... not much but why was he not checking or going all in??? why the scare me away bets unless he still didn't have a hand?

the river Q was a brief scare as I considered he may of hit with AQ, KQ, QJ or maybe even Q7suited... but by now I felt pot committed and decided to shove all in... better hands had me beat from the beginning and I half expected to see 2pair but I "felt" I had more than half his range on that board beat

I know I got lucky at the same time he got unlucky

thank you for taking the time to look over my hand and play

in the future I will include what I can of relevant info to help with analysis

ur comments and advise were very helpful

thank you again : )


 
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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badbones141 View Post

once I saw the flop I figured "if I hit maybe he missed" and I also was thinking he must of read me as TAG since this is my first time "straying" from that style in this premier game so what did he put me on???
Hi badbones141!

A TAG player would not be check/calling. That would be what a passive player would do. An aggressive player would be lead betting. Also, a TAG player would not be calling out of position, then checking the flop.

One thing that I try to do when I'm OOP, is to raise or fold preflop. If I call preflop, then I'm basically committing myself to bet the flop whether I hit or not. I'd rather raise pre and take the lead in the hand that way. It'll cost me less chips and give the opps a tougher decision before they would be able to see that they hit the flop.

There are many things that can factor into how to play hands and there can also be multiple lines that can be correct. The more info that you can give to us, the better we'll be able to help you. That way we will be able to give you our exact lines, instead of 'it depends'.

In the league games, I want to play more on the conservative side (play less hands, but still to be aggressive in the hands that I do play) and to play more hands IN position than out of position.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)


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