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QQ vs 2 opp, wise to laydown?

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QQ vs 2 opp, wise to laydown? - Fri Dec 21, 2012, 04:35 AM
(#1)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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I like a 5x raise here with QQ, 4x would normally be enough here but due to my stack size i want to seem that I am bullying and represent a weaker hand to induce action.


Board comes paired, checked to me so I don't see the 99s being a scare here, best to bet my QQ strong 75% here because i dont like the 2 99s and i dont like the flush. I am giving my opponents a good reason to run away from this pot now and let me take it down but if they do call, i want to be cautious going forward because my QQ may be behind to a rag 9.


So here after i bet it, one opp shoves and so does the other.

LOL... pottentially looking at a double check-raise here, i reckon at least one of them to have a 9 or a 2 for this type of action but with a board pair like it is, i would be wary about 1 check raise let alone 2!

I fold

First check-raiser had 33s
Second check-raise-caller had 1 over and a flush draw.

I laid down the best hand because my 2 opponents were complete fish but i still feel the laydown here was smart because whilst going up with QQ vs the short stack would have been a poor move due to the check-raise with 2 opps against him (im sorry if you check-raise with a short stack vs 2 opponents, im putting you on a very strong hand there!)... i could have made that and survived.

Vs the larger stack if he had me beat it wasnt worth the risk to my stack to find out.


So wise move?
 
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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:17 PM
(#2)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Hi baud2death,

Early in the tourney so no reads? I would probably make my default read based on the buyin and tourney speed.

This is an interesting spot. I actually think a call would be ok in this spot, the player I would be worried about is actually the caller rather than the check raiser.

I think a 9x or 22 would not move all-in in this spot and risk losing all their action when they mash 2800 chips into a 800 chip pot. I think those two hands would either flat call and start slow playing hoping that the 2nd player comes along, or they would reraise to a smaller amount. A shove here looks like a semi-bluff to me which is either a flush draw or a pocket pair. I've seen people doing this very often with a pair between 33 - 88 here because they think they have the best hand, don't want to flat call and see an over card come off and have you barrel again, don't wanna raise and get called, so they are trying to just take down the pot now with possibly the best hand if they do get called.

The caller in this spot is where I think a read is important. If they are a weak player (They did limp call a 5x raise) then they will be calling with hands like flush draws (34s, 78s KTs etc) also some hands that beat us like T9s, 98s. If they are a stronger player then flat calling I think puts their range more on 22, T9s, 98s where they have us crushed and absoutely want action. A stronger player with hands we beat like smaller pairs would I think reshove to isolate the semi-bluffer if they are going to continue in this spot.

Given they are both limp callers I would peg them as weaker players and probably reshove for value vs the hands they do actually show up with here, flush draws and smaller pairs.

I understand wanting to not commit almost 200BBs here after only investing a relatively small amount. But I think there is value here and there is real benefit in winning this pot for 14k or so and moving forward in the tourney. When we don't win we haven't lost a large time investment being early days in the tourney.

I think I like this spot to gamble.
Andy




Quad Bracelet Winner

 
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Sat Dec 22, 2012, 05:19 AM
(#3)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
The problem i find is that these are the Micro stakes and whilst it makes no sense not to get another street of value out of me (ie i folded here... if i folded on the turn once you shove, at least you got the flop money from me) however these guys are complete fish.

This means that they will shove without considering value either as a semi-bluff or if they have it...

The board is quite wet here and I just didnt like that one of them wasnt representing the 9s.

Sadly bet sizing has no read pottential in micro stakes. People will 5x raise with nothing and min.bet the nuts.

I have chased a hand to the river because opp min.bet 100 into a 1000 pot, the price is right to chase and then when they showdown they flopped the nut straight... its bonkers!

So i do get what you mean, in a typical higher staked game than a micro, the type of opponent who shoves here is looking to buy the pot rather than represent a strong hand but in the Micros, as you can clearly see... he had an underpair (so complete bluff which makes no sense considering my stack, my preflop raise and my flop bet) and the caller was on a draw.

They made the wrong moves and because of this type of play you cant read your opponent as much as you would like. They will play stupid moves like this.

It was very likely these fish came in with A9 or any 9x hand to hit the trips here and i couldnt take the risk early stage of a game to risk it... Would you still risk it knowing it is a micro stake game?
 
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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:06 AM
(#4)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
Sadly bet sizing has no read pottential in micro stakes. People will 5x raise with nothing and min.bet the nuts.

I have chased a hand to the river because opp min.bet 100 into a 1000 pot, the price is right to chase and then when they showdown they flopped the nut straight... its bonkers!
I think there still is bet sizing tells at microstakes and this is an example here. Flopping the nuts and betting really small so they get action. Same as slow playing which microstakes players are very prone to do especially when someone bets at them. They love trying to play tricky and trap.

And here again we see a shove as a bluff which you'll see alot. When players like this bluff allin they rarely want calls.




Quad Bracelet Winner

 
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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 01:23 PM
(#5)
RobinQQQ's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 115
What can you do? Yuk.
First thing is; to me a bigger than normal PFR often looks strong rather than weak, a big pair or Ace trying to cutdown the number of callers is my default read. So raising big trying to look weak may not always work.
As to the flop both players look really strong here and I can see myself mucking an overpair here it would depend on reads and (to be honest) my mood at the time. You could easily have been up against trip nines and a flush draw (which has decent equity against your hand anyway). Don't feel bad just make a note and move on.
Rob.
 
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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:16 AM
(#6)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Thanks for the advise

It was a close call, for sure... and I do get that in the longrun getting it in here is probably a +EV move.

I try and be more cautious than reckless.. after all playing QQ/KK/AA as a bulletproof vest is reckless.
 

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