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25NL 6-max zoom: A3s 4-bet pot in pos

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25NL 6-max zoom: A3s 4-bet pot in pos - Fri Dec 21, 2012, 05:43 PM
(#1)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Hi,

preflop: i open A3s from the cutoff and no surprise i get 3-bet from a 45/32 opp with 3-bet% 42 and aggresion factor 7 (over 50 hands ). against this range i 4-bet bluff with an A blocker and he flat calls oop. a normal person's range would be heavily weighted towards premiur pairs but against this joker i can't be sure.

flop: we flop pretty big with top pair and the nut flush draw to go with it. the problem is the psycho pots it on a crazy wet board where he could have tons of draws and sets alike.... i decided to call to hear what he's got to say on the turn and i always have the flush outs drawing to the nuts.

turn: my flush bricks and he puts m all-in so not much of a decision since i never expect m hand to be good at this point (all draws came as well)

How would you suggest m to play that differently?

 
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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:38 PM
(#2)
herbalerv's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 217
SilverStar
surely once you've decided you are going to play him with your hand, that flops as good as its going to get so I woulda shoved over his flop bet.
 
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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:52 PM
(#3)
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
Wow bro deep-stack madness.. Think when he flats your 4bet, most likely he's gonna have a premium hand JJ+. From him donking the flop, it's likely he has AK or JJ, protecting from any draws from the wet board. If he did it w QQ, he's just giving us a chance to play right. Against his range of AKs,AKo,JJ, we have 40% equity on the flop.

Don't think I'll jam the rest of my 200bb on the flop only on a draw. Doubt there's any fold equity. We're beating only bluffs (QQ), better will call for sure. So I'll probably flat like you did for implied odds.

P.S. Think your 4bet bluff was too big, $5.50 could have done the job
 
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Sat Dec 22, 2012, 07:04 AM
(#4)
UrGetinTaxed's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 189
i would move table
 
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Sat Dec 22, 2012, 10:45 AM
(#5)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
FOLD A-rag
 
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Sat Dec 22, 2012, 11:54 AM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Some of the hands you post look so similar to mine ...

I totally get the thinking there - like if the bb's got a 42% 3bet range, that'd be something akin to like, this:



Which would give A3s the following equity:



And so then if we're ahead, shouldn't we keep raising?

Apparently that's incorrect


Do you attend the Zoom live training classes on Thursdays? Because I've been going to the ones on Wednesday, and last week's class was about dealing with light 3bettors.

And apparently ... I think we're only supposed to be 4betting if we think there's a strong chance the person will find a fold button? Or be willing to go all in if they shove? Otherwise we should just call and take advantage of position to see a flop if our hand has decent post-flop playability - and if not we're supposed to fold or something like that?

I'm still making my way through last week's video ... so I'm not sure ...


But I guess by just calling the 3bet instead of 4betting, you could have done a reraise post-flop for the same price, so maybe that was one alternative - although maybe it wouldn't have wound up making a difference? Maybe next time the turn'll go your way instead?


Still making my way through the video - this is mostly just theory to me, so I'm not sure ...

I got the impression light 6-bets should be kind of rare though ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 11:56 AM..
 
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Sat Dec 22, 2012, 12:54 PM
(#7)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
I got the impression light 6-bets should be kind of rare though ...
lol
 
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Sat Dec 22, 2012, 05:02 PM
(#8)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
So I think the first thing is that our four-bet is much too big. We want to make the smallest four-bet that is going to fold his light three-bets. That size is going to be much smaller than 7.75. I think that size will be 5.50.

Our four-bet size really hangs us here because of the stack to pot ratio created on the flop and our opponent's lack of good manners. Had they checked to us like we would have wanted, we should check back in this situation.

As it happens, the flop is very close to a fold. Because our price is deceptive, our stack is leveraged, our equity is dirty, and our fold equity ran away to Mexico to get married against our wishes.

I highly doubt our opponent has any bluffs in their range to lead out to this size and I would imagine the bottom of their range to do this is AK and that that is an optimistic holding for them in this situation. So let's take a look at what stove says,

Board: Ah Jd Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.480% 35.88% 00.60% 5684 94.50 { Ad3d }
Hand 1: 63.520% 62.92% 00.60% 9967 94.50 { JJ-TT, KQs, AKo }

Boy this is ugly. If we add AJ type hands to this range not much changes, nor does it change if we add the two other AKs combinations.

I guess we have to move all-in versus this range, since if they fold just 2% of the time that is a huge windfall for us.

Yeah, if we take out half of the AK combinations so that their range is more heavily weighted to sets,


Board: Ah Jd Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.003% 34.42% 00.58% 5112 86.00 { Ad3d }
Hand 1: 64.997% 64.42% 00.58% 9566 86.00 { JJ-TT, AJs, KQs, AcKd, AcKh, AcKs, AdKh, AdKs, AhKs }

I think we just have a pot too big with too much equity for us to fold. Best to put the money in now and hold on tight.
 
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Sat Dec 22, 2012, 05:33 PM
(#9)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
i think u got owned by a donk . maybe u should think about cashing out when u get 200 BB deep and rebuying lol maybe cashing out when u get a 100BB stack,, lmao man he can smell the fear

Last edited by kingkong263; Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 05:37 PM.. Reason: never seen stack size
 
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Sat Dec 22, 2012, 07:10 PM
(#10)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Many thanks for your detailed analysis Gareth! Much appreciated!

epic line!!!!
"As it happens, the flop is very close to a fold. Because our price is deceptive, our stack is leveraged, our equity is dirty, and our fold equity ran away to Mexico to get married against our wishes."

oh boy, you 've got a sense of humour!already posted it on my skype profile
 
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Sat Dec 22, 2012, 07:29 PM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
"As it happens, the flop is very close to a fold. Because our price is deceptive, our stack is leveraged, our equity is dirty, and our fold equity ran away to Mexico to get married against our wishes."
lol!!
 
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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 12:21 AM
(#12)
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post

I guess we have to move all-in versus this range, since if they fold just 2% of the time that is a huge windfall for us.
Gareth, didn't really understand this line. Can you elaborate on that please? Cos you mentioned we don't have fold equity, so should we flat or shove??

Last edited by TheAwesomeNW; Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 12:25 AM..
 
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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:32 AM
(#13)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
The pot on hte flop after he bets is over 26 dollars. So let's say we move all and he calls 98% of the time and folds 2% of the time.

That means we win 26 dollars risk free 2% of the time and is +0.52 cents to our EV. That benefits a fair amount in this spot even though they are folding rarely because of the pot size.

The problem with calling is we are not getting direct+implied odds to see the turn only. If we move all-in we ensure we see the turn and the river and realize our equity versus his bet/call range, which we think is also very similar to his betting range.
 
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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:13 PM
(#14)
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
Ok thanks, much clearer now!!
 

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