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25NL 6-max zoom: AA preflop decision 170bbs deep

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25NL 6-max zoom: AA preflop decision 170bbs deep - Sun Dec 23, 2012, 01:51 PM
(#1)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Hi,

just a quick question about preflop 4-betting with AA ( because Gareth has made me doubt every pre-flop 4-bet i do with AA ).

a fairly aggressive player opens from the cutoff and a 23/21 with 17% 3-bet% over 50 hands 3-bets him.
On the bb I m with a decision, since we are playing 170bbs deep with the btn and therefore if i decide to trap with a smooth call keeping his range wide, i would still have trouble getting his whole stack postflop.

therefore the good old classic question by now
4-bet or smooth call?

 
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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:18 PM
(#2)
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
4bet will be best. Don't like to slowplay AA, it'll just result Khan's Theorem! Not nice especially at deeper stacks if he hits a set.

If he's 3betting light, he'll just fold to a 4bet. If he has AK, KK, QQ, he could flat your 4bet, making SPR smaller and easier commitment decision post-flop. Best case scenario, he'll get it all in preflop
 
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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:38 PM
(#3)
wikked76's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAwesomeNW View Post
4bet will be best. Don't like to slowplay AA, it'll just result Khan's Theorem! Not nice especially at deeper stacks if he hits a set.

If he's 3betting light, he'll just fold to a 4bet. If he has AK, KK, QQ, he could flat your 4bet, making SPR smaller and easier commitment decision post-flop. Best case scenario, he'll get it all in preflop

agreed. reckon 4bet is the way to go pre n if villain 5bets then the next step is to jam!?!?
 
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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:30 AM
(#4)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
If you're not going to 5 bet shove aces, then when could you make this move?? You know you are a big favorite, just go with it...

The day I won't shove aces is the day I quit poker.

 
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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:50 AM
(#5)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by joy7108 View Post
If you're not going to 5 bet shove aces, then when could you make this move?? You know you are a big favorite, just go with it...

The day I won't shove aces is the day I quit poker.

The reason we 're discussing 4-bettig, 5-betting, .... AA is not on whether we want to get the stacks in preflop.
Of course we do! It coolers off everything as Dave uses to say

The iaaue here is how to get all the money in without our opponents understanding we have AA
 
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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:21 AM
(#6)
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1nlaion View Post
The iaaue here is how to get all the money in without our opponents understanding we have AA
f1n, 4-bet jamming 170bb. He'll never put us on Aces
 
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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:08 AM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
This is like a follow-up to this hand, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1nlaion View Post
When the action got back to us, i decided to 5-bet, basically revealing a really strong hand on my part and not play it try and smooth call the 4-bet. The reason for that is that the 4-bettor seemed a tight 3/4 bettor



Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Hi f1nlaion

A very good hand to post I think because it is not always discussed.

I think, besides folding, you actually chose the worst option here. Well I guess folding is much worse! But you know what I mean ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1nlaion View Post
To even think this was a close spot then!
LOL @ me. What a donkey!!
I've been experiencing a bit of '2nd hand anxiety' about playing AA multi-way pre-flop from oop - the 5bet didn't look *that* bad?

I'm so glad u posted a follow-up, because I'm having a bit of trouble taking the stuff from that hand, and extrapolating it other spots that are ever so slightly different?

Like here's an example, but think I may have gone too far in the other direction and made my 4bet WAY too small? :/

(EDIT: made it 25bbs ... but didn't notice 3 of us had stacks that were larger than 100bbs? Not sure if that should have changed anything? I don't know ... anyways, got 2 go!! )

Click to show hidden text


Some stuff I guess I'm unsure about:

1. Do we always want to try to keep as many people in the pot as we can with AA, or was it largely because the pot had already gotten so big (and therefore the SPR had already gotten so small)? (And therefore the rest of the money would likely be going in on the flop - where AA was still likely to be in solid shape, even assuming people were playing speculative hands like 79s, etc?)

2. And if the pot isn't yet so big - but there's 4 of us in the pot ... like, do we want to reraise small to try and keep everybody in as a way to try and maximize value? Or is trying to keep 4 people in really pushing our luck, even with AA?

3. Or would reraising small be too obvious?

4. And/or does it make it too likely somebody else will squeeze whereas if we reraise larger, maybe everybody will just call?

5. I guess in f1nlaion's hand, the 5bet had already crossed the 25bb threshold, which ... did that sort of make it more-or-less like a pot-committing amount? And since he didn't shove, with AA being the only hand whose equity doesn't erode multiway, was that why a shove was preferable? Would we ever want to shove in any other case?

6. And then there's the deep-stack thingie ... would we ever want to get AA AIPF that deep, or is it more like wikked's situation with the AK here: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...n-in-doubt-JAM

7. Or should we just be folding AA pre-flop?

Last edited by TrustySam; Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 06:34 PM.. Reason: Guess my 3bet was a 4bet? :o
 
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Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:27 AM
(#8)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey everyone

First TrustySam I like your four-bet in that spot and hte size to 25x. It is big enough that no matter how many people come along you are going to be building a huge flop to crush them most of the time on the flop.

Anyways on the original question, yes, I would definitely four-bet in this spot. Stack depth is huge here. We don't have a huge reason to think the original raiser will come along should we flat, and out of position, that won't even be that good for us at this stack depth.

What I take issue with is your four-bet sizing. Why so serious? I think 6.25 would have been considerably better. It is a much more inviting size for our opponent to play against, either by calling or re-popping us. The larger we make our four-bet here the less hands they are likely to continue with and the less value we are likely to get. So I would four bet to 6.25 and expect to have set up a nice SPR postflop versus an inferior range of hands deep with an opponent. Pretty sweet all around.

Four-bet sizing is about setting up a good risk reward, and because so much of the effective stacks are being put in, we don't need to make them that big. I know we are out of position here and that might be a cause for us to want to make it bigger. But should they call 6.25 the pot will be over 12 on the flop and that is a plenty small SPR, a plenty big pot, that we will be able to get the money in postflop if we want it.

I think the other hand where I advocated a call was a different circumstance because of how strong our 5 bet would look and also we had assurances that the three-better basically always continues as well should we cold call.

All straightforward
 
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Thu Dec 27, 2012, 07:48 PM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
All straightforward
Yeah, it's me ... it's all just a little bit overwhelming. I just need some time to think I think ...

Thanks Gareth
 

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