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right or wrong?

right or wrong? - Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:59 PM
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
I'd post this in the cash game hand analysis, but since it's a play money table in the PSO Daily Game I thought this was better. If I'm wrong, someone's probably going to move it

There was a discussion after the hand: Should I have 5-bet shoved the 4-bet preflop, or not?

My thoughts were simple: he could be 4-betting me with a lot thinking I'm on a squeeze, and if I 5-bet shove, he's gonna walk away. So I decided to call the 4-bet, figuring he'd c-bet most flops and I'd get some extra value.

The flop's an Ace high so I have a set which is great. So he c-bets as expected, and I decide to call instead of raise. After all, if I raise any pocket pair might fold because of the Ace on the flop. I could be playing AQ or AK or something, so they'd be beat. A raise here and he might fold. I don't see myself losing the hand anymore, unless he played some kind of double club hand, but what, KQ? Maybe.

On the turn I hit quads. The intent now is to shove his bet, but he checks. At this point I want to bet, because I want value, and I don't think I can value-shove the river here for his remaining stack, too much of an overbet. So I bet a little over half pot. On the one hand, make it look a bit bluffish, on the other making it not so big he'll fold good hands, or that flush draw, but at the same time making his stack-to-pot ratio ripe for the pickings on a river shove.

He checks the river, the flush card hits. So either he's scared of the flush, or he's made the flush. Still - nothing for me to do but shove. Fortunately for me, he decided to call. Ka-ching.

So now the questions:

a] should I have 5-bet shoved preflop here?
b] what to think of the flat call on the flop?
c] was the turn bet good, or should I just have shoved it?

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Last edited by Ov3rsight; Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 04:02 PM..
Fri Dec 28, 2012, 06:41 PM
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
a) I think a 5 bet shove is turning your hand face up - assuming you're not a LAG, how wide can your 5 bet shove range be?

b) I like your call here, the only thing you have to fear is the flush, and even then you have outs.

c) I like the turn bet, I think if you had shoved the hand would have been over. Since you got all his chips on the river, your plan worked. Well played.

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:27 PM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
I like the play preflop, but if that's me, I'm absolutely raising the flop. Depending on what the opp has, they may get a +EV draw with their bet and I would want to make sure that their play would be -EV.
A raise on the flop also sets up a turn shove.

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Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:17 AM
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
I would 5b here generally but not 5b shove pretty much ever on this depth of money. The effective stack starts 220 bb's deep (villains)... so look at the betting progression if we 5b shove: 3.5x, 8.5x, 27x, 220x? It's way too big a bet and really lets the villain off the hook with a lot of middling pairs and big broadway cards as it's easy enough to fold those now. When would I 5b shove? When the villain is a huge fish who has shown they will call off to huge overbets with weak hands. Normally I think a nice continuance of the betting progression is to about 58.5x or so here. It makes it very hard for the villain to fold after just 4-betting to 27x, forces them to commit with premium hands, gives them room to 6-bet shove light once in a while as they think we can still fold if we're just screwing around, and sets up a very easy commitment decision post flop when they call.

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