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Win-rate in the blinds

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Win-rate in the blinds - Tue Jan 01, 2013, 10:35 PM
(#1)
pdoenix's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 6
Hi everyone,

I would like to know what's a reasonable win-rate in the blinds playing 6-max tables, i.e., if I loose more than ?? bb/100 I should re-evaluate my strategy and I'm doing something wrong. And is there any difference when playing zoom?

Thank You in advance,
Pdoenix
 
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Tue Jan 01, 2013, 11:24 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
I just went looking for those for 5nl 6-max because I've been having trouble in the cut-off position for the longest time.

I was surprised at how hard it was to find a list anywhere, even as a general guide - in fact I wasn't able to find anything, so I had to go looking around at 2+2 for a graph that looked solid over a decent sample size to use to make my own?

And this is the data I got from the stats this player posted: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=4494

Code:
BTN   23,006    $398.67    34.65bb/100
CO    22,620    $297.41    26.29bb/100
MP    20,478    $266.94    26.07bb/100
EP    12,070    $124.04    20.55bb/100
BB    23,405   -$472.65   -40.39bb/100
SB    23,129   -$127.24   -11.00bb/100

I have no idea if these are typical or not, because I couldn't find that many graphs in the database help thread that looked super solid over a large enough sample size.

But my c/o winrate was so much lower, seeing this person's c/o rate was good enough for what I was looking for I guess.


I wonder how much these winrates fluctuate with variance, because it seems like I've had problems at some point with every spot on the table ... and then it just cleared itself up?

Do you play a lot out of the blinds? Or not much at all? I used to fold a lot because I didn't like playing out of position, but after I opened up my range my winrate actually went up, so that was kind of funny ...


Not sure what I'm doing wrong in the cut-off though ... my winrate from there is still terrible - seems like I'm just trying out anything to see if it'll help (tightening up, loosening up, etc, etc)
 
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Tue Jan 01, 2013, 11:55 PM
(#3)
pdoenix's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 6
At this point I have:
SB: 32961 hands, -12.09 bb/100
BB: 32622 hands, -32.01 bb/100

I have opened up my range in the blinds, in the sense, that I play more aggressively against steals from BTN (3bet more). I don't remember my exact statistics before that, but I'm pretty sure that it's a little bit better (I remember having -60bb/100 in BB at some point). I decided to open up my range from the blinds, when I realized, that I loose most of the money by just folding.

I think winrate starts to fluctuate much less, when there are about 100k hands.

It's hard to say why Your winrate in CO is low since I have no idea how your'e playing. It might be just fluctuation. Also changing Your strategy all the time might have a negative impact since it can get confusing and in my experience confusion has highly negative impact on winrate.
 
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Wed Jan 02, 2013, 07:53 AM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Almost no one makes money in the blinds in the long run, and you need a fairly large sample size to account for random variance.
Loss rates in the SB of between 10 and 25 big blinds per 100 hands are fine. For the big blind, losing less than 25bb/100 is very good. I think most winning players lose about 30bb/100 in the BB.
If you're losing more than 30bb/100 in either seat, you've probably got a fixable leak (playing too tight or too loose, usually).
 
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Wed Jan 02, 2013, 05:10 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdoenix View Post
At this point I have:
SB: 32961 hands, -12.09 bb/100
BB: 32622 hands, -32.01 bb/100

I have opened up my range in the blinds, in the sense, that I play more aggressively against steals from BTN (3bet more). I don't remember my exact statistics before that, but I'm pretty sure that it's a little bit better (I remember having -60bb/100 in BB at some point). I decided to open up my range from the blinds, when I realized, that I loose most of the money by just folding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Almost no one makes money in the blinds in the long run, and you need a fairly large sample size to account for random variance.
Loss rates in the SB of between 10 and 25 big blinds per 100 hands are fine. For the big blind, losing less than 25bb/100 is very good. I think most winning players lose about 30bb/100 in the BB.
If you're losing more than 30bb/100 in either seat, you've probably got a fixable leak (playing too tight or too loose, usually).
Your stats look good if there's variance and anything around -10-25bb/100 in the sb, and anything around -30bb/100 in the bb is about average. The -40bb/100 of the person whose stats I got on 2+2 did seem a little high.

Do you go to live training? Your name seems familiar, but your avi doesn't. Is that where you got the idea to open up your ranges too? The change for me in the sb after those two classes in October was pretty drastic (I started playing 5nl at the beginning of September, and the class where Gareth gave out hand ranges was on Oct. 17th I think?):




LOL!!


If that wasn't where you got the idea to open up your range, maybe watching those two videos might give you more ideas the way it helped me? I think they're in the library now?

But your winrates already look really good!! My winrate in the bb used to be a lot better, but I didn't realize it's started to droop. Sometimes I get lazy about defending my blinds because it takes more effort I think to have to play lesser holdings out of position, and so it sometimes feels so much easier to just fold? I'm so glad you posted this stuff about winrates in the blinds because I hadn't noticed how much I'd let that slide - guess I should put more effort into defending my blinds.

PS Thanks for posting those winrates arty - very helpful!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 05:13 PM..
 
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Thu Jan 03, 2013, 02:24 AM
(#6)
pdoenix's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post

Do you go to live training? Your name seems familiar, but your avi doesn't. Is that where you got the idea to open up your ranges too? The change for me in the sb after those two classes in October was pretty drastic (I started playing 5nl at the beginning of September, and the class where Gareth gave out hand ranges was on Oct. 17th I think?):
...
If that wasn't where you got the idea to open up your range, maybe watching those two videos might give you more ideas the way it helped me? I think they're in the library now?

But your winrates already look really good!! My winrate in the bb used to be a lot better, but I didn't realize it's started to droop. Sometimes I get lazy about defending my blinds because it takes more effort I think to have to play lesser holdings out of position, and so it sometimes feels so much easier to just fold? I'm so glad you posted this stuff about winrates in the blinds because I hadn't noticed how much I'd let that slide - guess I should put more effort into defending my blinds.

PS Thanks for posting those winrates arty - very helpful!!
I have started to watch live trainings this month and I have seen GarethC23 videos about playing from blinds, but those videos just confirmed that I'm going in the right direction with my ranges and playing strategy from the blinds. I opened up my range when I understood, that I'm losing most of my money in blinds by just folding.

We might have played together, that's why You know my PS avatar. I do grind from time to time.
 
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Thu Jan 03, 2013, 02:26 AM
(#7)
pdoenix's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Almost no one makes money in the blinds in the long run, and you need a fairly large sample size to account for random variance.
Loss rates in the SB of between 10 and 25 big blinds per 100 hands are fine. For the big blind, losing less than 25bb/100 is very good. I think most winning players lose about 30bb/100 in the BB.
If you're losing more than 30bb/100 in either seat, you've probably got a fixable leak (playing too tight or too loose, usually).

Then I guess I shouldn't be worried about my stats in the blinds.
 

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