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5nl Zoom - QTs, should I 3bet shove the flop?

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5nl Zoom - QTs, should I 3bet shove the flop? - Wed Jan 02, 2013, 09:20 AM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
The villain is single tabling, although I don't have a lot of info on him he is playing fairly loose aggressive from what I can tell. I only have 45 hands on him but his stats are shaping up LAGy...

33/30/29 AF 3.8 He's been 3 bet once and didn't fold.



Preflop I decided to 3 bet, I did this because I've been working on playing from the blinds and it seemed a good spot to do so. The villain has been fairly aggressive and can definately be wide on the BTN, I have some high card value and they're fairly connected. I made a 3 bet to 3.5x his raise and he flatted. Do you think this was an okay spot to 3 bet pre or should I just pitch it?

I flop an OESD and lead for around 2/3 pot, he then raises me pretty big. I have no notes on him so I'm unsure what he raises like this with. I don't think I can profitably call here as unless I hit it's going to be a nightmare to play the turn profitably. I decided to shove as I thought he had TP in his raising range that would fold as well as hands like KQ that couldn't face any more heat. Did I have enough fold equity here to pull the trigger or did I misjudge the situation?

Oliver


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Thu Jan 03, 2013, 08:50 AM
(#2)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
On reflection I actually think the best line would be to call preflop, then x/r quite large and fold to any further action.

Any thoughts?


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Thu Jan 03, 2013, 10:29 AM
(#3)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
i dont get the 3bet with QT . and the bet fold . ok u 3 bet QT i dont understand that but ok , why bet fold the flop. if u are going to start fing with loose agressive players have a plan becouse your bet on the flop is going to get called or raised 80% of the time. on the flop i would have shoved the draw and prayed to make it. at least u would be sticking with your preflop story. i like Q3 J4 OR 72 for 3 betting easy to play after flop . QT maybe call and play post flop then u can check call or check raise flop.
 
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Thu Jan 03, 2013, 04:09 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Hi,

I don't think this is a great spot to 3b tbh. You said you thought this was a good spot to do so... but why? His range is very wide on the button, agreed, but that's only part of the picture. The one time he called a 3b pre did the hand get shown? This could be critical info. If it gets shown and is TT, it doesn't mean anything since that's a normal hand for people to call with. If he shows J8s though for instance, that's very telling, we could conclude he is going to call 3b's very liberally.

So at any rate, in evaluating if this is a good spot to 3b I'm asking myself if this is a bet for value or as a bluff in general... I don't think we can say QTo is a value bet, we may get called by some worse hands like JT, but have to assume at this point he'll fold a lot of the garbage steals that we play well against. It's too thin imo. We also can't say it's a bluff really since the early evidence is that this guy may call us with stuff like K4 which is actually leading. How about taking the initiative and winning post flop with that? His early stats don't make him a great candidate for that either, as he may well be a bit sticky to pots, and may make moves more often than we'd like. On balance, I don't think this is a good spot to 3b.

Our hand is strong enough to defend by calling though I think. Yes we'll have to frequently give up when we miss, costing ourselves that 1 bb call. But we should be able to win enough to compensate for that when we hit our hand, even factoring that we can hit a pair and not be good sometimes, since his range is so wide and we keep all the garbage and hands we dominate in it... and he's aggro post so may bluff or make more light moves when we improve.

As played I think shoving is good, you have fold equity but I do think you misjudged it since you said he can have top pair in his range and fold it... I know you're repping an overpair but I just think this dude isn't folding top pair if you put a gun to his head. He can fold 9x, other pairs and moves where he's just testing you. I agree that calling is problematic if we miss, by shoving we leverage some fold equity plus get to realize all of our hand equity with the draw + Q overcard which is good at least some of the time (and if he calls off with a hand like A9 then even a ten is good for us).


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Thu Jan 03, 2013, 04:12 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
then x/r quite large and fold to any further action.

Any thoughts?
Too early to make that determination as we don't see his c-bet size. We should also consider check/call - bet and check/call - check/raise lines, as well as simply donking right into him (and perhaps even a bet/3b line as a semi-bluff as that should look very strong on the flop).


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Thu Jan 03, 2013, 04:51 PM
(#6)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi Dave

The reason I thought it was a good spot was because I'd just been watching Gareth 'playing from the blinds' video. I think my brain had taken in a lot of info and I completely misapplied what was talked about. I went through my notes after and saw that hands like this are actually much better to call with.

At the time my inner monologue was telling me I was 3betting as a bluff, however I can see your point about him not folding worse. Would you say we HAVE to know that the opener has a high F3B% to attempt a 'light' 3 bet from the blinds?

Also do you think that even against someone who folds to 3bets a tonne; and opens wide OTB this would be a better hand to call with? As we dominate a lot of there range and can get tricky on flops such as these.

Thanks for all the help

Oliver


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Thu Jan 03, 2013, 05:05 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
Would you say we HAVE to know that the opener has a high F3B% to attempt a 'light' 3 bet from the blinds?
No, I wouldn't say that. For instance if he calls 3b's way too light but plays fit or fold on the flop, that's a great candidate to 3b light.

Quote:
Also do you think that even against someone who folds to 3bets a tonne; and opens wide OTB this would be a better hand to call with? As we dominate a lot of there range and can get tricky on flops such as these.
Both plays have merit but against someone who opens wide and calls very tight I will generally pound them relentlessly with 3B's in this situation so am more playing the player and not the cards now. As to what's better, don't get stuck on preflop play, how they play post flop is a big factor as well. If they are prone to big post flop mistakes then lean towards calling, and if they are going to make life rough post flop by playing their hand or position well then lean towards 3-betting.


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Thu Jan 03, 2013, 09:15 PM
(#8)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
I went through my notes after and saw that hands like this are actually much better to call with.
 

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