Home / Community / Forum / Support Area / Poker News /

Poker demon get the xx off my shoulder.

Old
Default
Poker demon get the xx off my shoulder. - Wed Jan 02, 2013, 09:55 PM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
I SEE YOU SITTING ON MY SHOULDER DEMON, please go away, you lure me in, when my BR is low, and sit and wait for me to get a some doe.
Then you pounce, casting your curse, favoring the fish, and making skills pay.
I see you poker demon on my shoulder, And I will not let you spoil my day,
as I will always be happy, and laugh in your face, and my taste of bitterness, will spoil your day.
So please poker demon, go, go, away.

Hey all, well, what a terrible start to the season. All 8 weekly 45 man 25c sng's lost except for 1 min cash.

A nice double up on a 1c-2c NLhe cash table was nice with a $1 buyin, but then for the demon to have it's day with a $2
buyin, and just take it away.

About 3-4 times all ready I have lost in similar fashion, it is just so cruel, when your reads kick you in the face.

Ok, underneath is one of these killer hands, the villain had a 100 vpip over a half hour period.
He was raising and calling people down with bottom pair, on heavy drawing boards etc, and was losing badly.
I was happy to limp in even out of position to try to catch my fish, I had got him where I wanted him, so I thought....


http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=8D6CFA5419



Yes you can argue that J2s is a really questionable play on the SB, but I had the reads on the opp, and the trap as with a few of late, as favored the fishy....

So am I tilting, or am I having bad luck, or is it

THE DEMON

Last edited by holdemace486; Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 09:59 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 02, 2013, 10:58 PM
(#2)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey holdem, do you remember writing this when I was still playing STTs and was going through a horrible downswing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Hi Sam, what do I personally think about variance, i could write some of the strangest theories ever heard lol. However the best optimal way of dealing with variance as to be to play less.
Less in poker is more, concentration levels are at the highest, and so on.
Too easy to loose a game then jump straight into another one,
still steaming about the last beat.
I learnt to run before I could walk in poker. Knowing how to play textbook poker before I even knew what everything meant.
Like a mechanic who can fix a car but does not know what an exhaust is, to that mechanic its just a pipe,he knows where to put that pipe, but does not know the purpose of the pipe.
Downswing this can be easily resolved,stop trying to win and try to stay even. Freerolls etc,play them all,find the patience.
Drop your buyins or amount of tables you are playing.
You do not need to try will those feelings away just try to change them feelings. Once you take the fun factor out of life,especially in poker,its game up. Chasing all the time something you never had, making yourself hate yourself because you know your better than that.
Bad habits become a part of downswings,constantly making the same mistake over and over again.
Or trying to look for answers to something that was never broke.
I'm not sure if you will understand what I am saying to you as half the time I'm not sure,but the truth is talking to others, is always a good start in any situation.

And then I replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Why, that's not weird at all

I've read a lot of your posts holdemace, but I feel like this is the first time I've really stopped to listen ... like really hear you ...

WOW!!

Your style of writing's kind of 'stream of consciousness' and a little more poetic and profound, but it sounds like you were saying:


1. On the subject of VARIANCE: less is more, slow and steady wins the race

- that it's just so easy to fall into the trap of busting out of a game in a bad way, and then making the mistake of firing up a new one ... while still steaming and tilted
- but concentration is so important, that taking a break to get that back is so key

- also, who was it that said poker can take a day to learn and a lifetime to master? (your parable of the mechanic and the pipe)


2. On the subject of DOWNSWINGS: life is about enjoying the moment

- there's that common temptation of sometimes wanting to try and force a win during a losing streak, which will tend to make things worse rather than better
- just need to try and continue to patient
- and drop down a level if possible

And then this is where you really hit your stride:

Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Once you take the fun factor out of life,especially in poker, it's game up.

Chasing all the time something you never had, making yourself hate yourself because you know your better than that.
And then there was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Bad habits become a part of downswings, constantly making the same mistake over and over again.

Or trying to look for answers to something that was never broke.
And this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
the truth is talking to others, is always a good start in any situation.
Some nice practical tips, and some astute insight there holdem!!

Guess it's always a bit of a challenge to try and do the things we know will help when we're in the middle of one of these ourselves, but you had some nice ideas there!! Hang in there!!
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 02, 2013, 11:11 PM
(#3)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
I SEE YOU SITTING ON MY SHOULDER DEMON
As soon as I saw this I knew what was to follow. RESULTS ORIENTED THINKING!

You did not disappoint either.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 01:20 AM
(#4)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Thank you Sam for reminding me of that post. And yes, I am calming now a bit after some pso play chip fun, and reading that.

And yes I think I have let a few results bother me too much.

Lots of weeks to go yet, so hopefully I will find some flow, and it is all about the flow; and getting into the flow off constantly making those right decisions.

Thanks again, and talking helps.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 02:11 AM
(#5)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
It's not tilting,it's a flawed thought process.

You say that the player was loose and weak and a spewer,so why would you choose to play the game on HIS level?

You chose to play a weak hand like J2s OOP to try and "trap" a player you have marked as weak? If he's so weak then the drop dead last thing you want to do is get involved with him holding hands like J2s. Let me ask you this...would you have played the hand if it were J2o? If the answer is no then you need to familiarize yourself with just how much hand equity being suited adds,because I think your expectations are probably way off.

You broke rule number 1 when playing against a bad player,ESPECIALLY a bad loose player player who's shown a willingness to pay off with worse---DO NOT try to beat a bad player,make THEM try to beat YOU.

That's Leak Number 1 we see displayed here,and it's worse than a technical "how you played the hand leak",it's an actual approach and strategy leak. Those are BR sinkers.

Secondly is how you played the hand here...as I already said,even getting involved with the J2s OOP to begin with is a fish play,especially if the player is as bad as you say,because you're doing one of the worst things you can ever do in this game. You're putting yourself in position to play a hand where most of the strongest boards for you put you in spots where you can be second best way,way too many times.

What can flop that you're really liking to see here,holdem? You're only 4th nut to a flush,are gapped to wide for it to be possible for both of you cards to play in a straight,and have serious kicker issues on any J high flop. This is the kind of hand that oft times what you think is a good hand by the river is only setting you up for a big loss.

Limping in,especially OOP,with a hand like J2s is NEVER going to be +EV against ANY player type,regardless of any reads you think you may have. That's Leak Number 2.

Then after the flop you all decide to just check it around,OK that's probably your best play here at 2NL,so now problem there IMO.

But...you make your hand on the turn and then check and FLAT CALL.

This is terrible for more than one reason. You're letting any Ahx or Qhx hands that haven't made a flush yet get a draw at the river for free. What if someone holds,say...6h5h,or 9h6h,9h7h or several other combos that get to either the 10 high SF,or an 8 high SF and is bloating the pot by betting on the come? One thing you KNOW is that there is no SF that you can have as gapped as your 2 hearts are.

But letting hands draw on you isn't even the worst thing here,the worst thing is that there are plenty of hands that a player who is as weak as you say this one was could be holding that they will pay you off with if you raise the turn here,but they may have hands that they will shut down with if a scare card rivers.And it's also going to be harder to get as good a payoff on the river from hands that you have beat when non scare cards for the opp come on the river if you don't start building the pot now. Plus in case they DO have a bigger flush than you on the turn is a better place to find that out as you can exercise more river pot control by putting a bet out on the turn and seeing how they act now. They call and/or raise you can start ranging them. So far in this hand you've done NOTHING to do that,they can literally have an enormous range of hands and you really have no clue where you are when you just flat the turn bet.

So you're punting value by passing on raising the turn bet by the villain here,letting draws that can beat you peel a free card and failing to range the villain in any way when you flat the bet here. That would be Leak Number 3.

Finally,I don't know if you've watched any of xflixx's or Dave's videos with micro-limit ring play but this is so simple and true as to be glaringly evident. When a player at these levels is representing that they have it then THEY HAVE IT. The times that will hold true so massively outweigh the times that it won't that you should never,ever,make the hero call that you did. When the villain raises the .15 after you check your option you have plenty of showdown value,TAKE IT. Your hand is too good to fold for sure,but you CAN easily be behind here. Ahxh and Qhxh are well within the villains range,heck YOU played J2 didn't you? The only time in this hand that ever saw you get aggressive and take the initiative is AFTER the villain is screaming at you that he likely has you beat. You're far from having the nuts here,take the showdown value you have and just call his bet.

That's Leak Number 4.

I don't say bad plays here but leaks instead holdem for the simple fact that when I see you trying to justify your play in this hand then I think these are plays that you make a habit of making and that makes them leaks.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 02:21 AM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 03:09 AM
(#6)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
No NO NO, sorry mox if you dont understand any advance plays and reverse strategies.

I am getting beat like a dog, by the people with high vpip, donk play, and yet again they are hitting everything, for a change.

I wish I had never topped up, its a load off rubbish. The demon made sure I have gone below $100 so I can not withdraw it.

Want proof,

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...s=1&showLog=1&

I knew he had the 7, they always have a it.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=83487B168A

yet again another stuff you holdemace we are the donks that keep the rakes going.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=C3402EDD2C

yet another fish hitting his 2 outer

it just never ever changes, its not me thinking result orientated, its complete garbage.
I dont run this bad with Freeplay chips ever.

Again its like I cant play the stupid game, ARR man i swear if i get bk over my $100 im off.

ANd those who have played me or watched me know I can play, but variance, you suck.

Last edited by holdemace486; Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 04:12 AM.. Reason: correct wording
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 03:48 AM
(#7)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
668 hands

Aces 14 times
King king 12 times
queen queen 12 times
jacks 11 times
tens 9 times

cash tables not even counted
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Overall Winnings (Cash + Tournament) for holdemace486.jpg (12.2 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by holdemace486; Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 04:13 AM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 05:07 AM
(#8)
Da Sens Fan's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,118
Does any1 else skip holdemace's OP sometimes just to read the entertaining replies?


You might be a king or a little street sweeper, but sooner or later you'll dance with the reaper.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 08:19 AM
(#9)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Bro Bro Bro.....

Advanced plays at 2nl lol, so what do expect to gain because most players at 2nl are rec players, there is no need to get fancy with them what so ever, when a 2nl player shows strength you fold it's simple and yes even aces 3 way after the flop you know this so why the hell do you need reminding, oh boy your on tilt again, if you really get the urge to play fancy then at least do it against a reg not a rec player, regs understand the game.

If you have a few bad games that's it your confidence has gone, your number 1 weapon in poker gone!
Limping in with j2s OOP omfg!!!!!!! what are you playing at?
Stop playing poker right now, get on the training vids for a day or so do not go on the tables, hit the 24 hour self exclude use it that's what its there for and spend the time asking yourself questions, you are playing ego based EV which is in fact -EV. You see all the players on the table playing any 2 cards and join in the dance, if u want to splash with them then do it with cards that hold some value and do it when you are on the button, once again which you already know.

Someone on here has very kindly done you a br management schedule and your blowing your chances of anyone taking you serious because once again your on tilt, yes bro tilt why the hell else would you play j2,s OOP.

Do you think all the superstars win all the time?
The reason they do win and keep on winning is because they show great patients during there swings, you show none, this is a leak and needs sorting out.

0 patients=leak.

Playing OOP with -EV cards=leak.

If somebody beats you with a junk hand vs your junk hand you go off the rail=leak.

Checking while you are marginally ahead allowing a free card=leak.

Showing emotion in a forum full of card sharks hiding in the background=leak.

Playing all the hours you can without breaks in your daily life creates robotic play and for you robotic leaks.

You said to me last week, Paul we can help each others game well take my advise then bro, have a day or 2 off if you cant listen too your own bro then theres not much hope to getting a grip on your leaks.

We all have leaks some larger than others this is the number one thing that must be addressed to improve your game, and do not say it does not need improving lol I know what your like, we all need to improve.

If you need to find something else to do while you calm down a bit, then stick your hand histories on disk or something bring them down my house and we can go through them and review them telling me your thought process along the way and I can give you my opinions on the hands, yup I know not the best person to be taking advise off but 2 heads are better than 1 bro.

My women is a rec player and has just taken her last $6 to $116, yeah I know what a run but at the same time she listens to my advise better than I do.

Gl bro

Paul.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 08:23 AM
(#10)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
668 hands

Aces 14 times
King king 12 times
queen queen 12 times
jacks 11 times
tens 9 times

And you're complaining about the cards? You are (expletive deleted) out of your mind. What a lucky (censored)!


Based on mathematics, you should have three or four pocket pairs for each of these five hands. So that means you're ten up with aces, eight up with kings and queens, seven up with jacks, and five up with tens. You also hit the group one and two pairs fifty-six times. That is a rate of eight percent, almost double what my numbers show.

When I publish my next report, I talk about a six hundred hand streak where I didn't see any of those hands. Not once. If I had that high a frequency, I would be dancing.

Let's look at just the pocket aces. If you read any of the books or sites about card frequency, pocket aces accounts for 0.46 percent of a player's hands. Your percentage is around 02.1 percent, which is almost five times the expected result.

From this small a sample, I'll not call you lucky, or claim the numbers skewed. Heck, I had my hot streaks with these cards too. I want to see your distribution once you hit five thousand hands. No doubt the numbers will become more in line with the math. If you're still running this hot and losing, I think you should consider Moxie's advice regarding game leaks.

If you're on the negative with these monsters, that has to be another game leak. I'll pose the question to Moxie, if a player is hitting pocket aces once every forty-eight hands, would you expect a higher ROI?
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 09:18 AM
(#11)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
If you're on the negative with these monsters, that has to be another game leak. I'll pose the question to Moxie, if a player is hitting pocket aces once every forty-eight hands, would you expect a higher ROI?[/QUOTE]


That's a really good question, I find I run hotter when I don't see them premium hands because I either tend to take down the blinds or lose 100bb+ in a race, even though I do get the action by the op when I ship them, they tend to suck out on me, it has been like this for me for about 18 months now, iv'e now convinced myself I am playing rockets wrong pre flop even though I ship and get the call lol.

My aces hold up less than 50% of the time, I win more with AQ off it's mind boggling.

To my Bro, there is a lesson in that, I don't rant or go off on the forums because I refuse to allow emotion into my game, the second it creeps in or I feel it creeping in I close the client down and have a deep breath and a week off or as I did last time 6 months exclude I think it was because I knew I really needed to work my game out more, I still do hit and run tactics on smaller sites cashing in weekly but I never play for more than about 8-10 hours per week, basically what you play in a day bro, the diff is that 8-10 hours gets my A game and gives me a weekly mini wage, yes granted small amounts of dosh but turning $10 into $50-$150 makes me smile and keeps my passion for poker alive.

Answer me this bro, how many hours a day get your A game, how many hours a day do you play for the sake of playing?

Narrow the hours down to your A game play, and then watch your ROI improve.

I also noticed you said "played on a cash table", was that within your schedule? or have you strayed from it?

Gl

Paul.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 02:29 PM
(#12)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Since 6-max is always higher variance than full ring, why are you playing short tables?
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 03:04 PM
(#13)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Thank you guys for the support, I have not strayed from my schedule.
I did not consider 6 max to have more variance interesting.

And my card run was just before I deposited, and not since.
The source for this is pt4 trial version, this is how many times it says I have had these hands in that amount of hands.

And yes to my Bruv, pokerpest, you know im tilting lol, sorry MOx if i as rude will read your post again was half asleep to be honest.

Thanks guys, i know its just me if im honest, Im so stupid, I know I can make it, I know I can beat micros, yet I fall about evey single time im rolled as the motivation goes.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 05:46 PM
(#14)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
The blinds come around faster plus card values change. High cards go up in value while small-medium pairs and connectors will not have the implied odds, especially when you have or are up against short stacks (less than ~50BB).
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 06:47 PM
(#15)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Holdem I'm not going to comment on the statement you make in post #6 except to say I know you were tilted to Hell and back when you made it so no harm no foul.

Look,I'm only seeing the same thing your own brother is seeing here---for whatever reason (pride,stubbornness,being petulant and in a self-defeating mindest after a couple of beats...)you're trying to FORCE THINGS to happen here in spots that do not call for it and that equals disaster more often than not in micros. Really at all levels,but especially in micros because it's so counter-intuitive and unnecessary.

Look at the 2 hands you posted in THAT post (the first one doesn't load BTW,so I mean the 64o and the QQ hands...).

The 6s4d hand...WHY are you even playing this hand,especially on a 6-max 2NL table? As Joe 100% correctly said,variance at 6-max tables is higher for the simple fact that the blinds hit you more often. So you have to adjust for it and the first adjustment is to NOT leak chips playing bad hands or marginal hands OOP. The blinds will suck away enough of your win rate as it is,you never want to add to that reality by leaking chips off with weak holdings.

On the flop you do get top pair and a OESD,but when the BB leads out for .10 you need to slow down right here and ask yourself what range could they have been calling with preflop that would lead to this donk bet. He may have hit a set,could have a middle over pair like 77-99,maybe even 1010,seen that hand flat calling a lot at 2NL in the day myself. At the moment all you have is top pair with a crap kicker and a draw for the OESD. You may even be behind and against a better backdoor flush draw,which takes that away from you as well.

In hindsight was the opps play here good? No,of course not. But the range of hands that he COULD have turned over that would have you crushed here is great enough that your shove is really pretty awful too.


The QQ hand,all I'm gonna say is this...if you think villain #3 leading out for 2.5x and then calling .03 into a .15 pot after your weak,weak,weak raise preflop,then leading out for 1/2 the pot off your check and consequently stacking you when you refuse to believe what they're telling you... "I have a set"...if you think THEY'RE the one playing this hand like a fish here then you really,really,really need to listen to Paul and take a 24 hour,at least,self exclusion timeout and examine a lot of things in your game.

With someone whom you DO accept as being more knowledgeable than you so that you WILL listen to them.

You're giving money away with plays like these,pure and simple.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 07:00 PM
(#16)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairn Destop View Post
And you're complaining about the cards? You are (expletive deleted) out of your mind. What a lucky (censored)!


Based on mathematics, you should have three or four pocket pairs for each of these five hands. So that means you're ten up with aces, eight up with kings and queens, seven up with jacks, and five up with tens. You also hit the group one and two pairs fifty-six times. That is a rate of eight percent, almost double what my numbers show.

When I publish my next report, I talk about a six hundred hand streak where I didn't see any of those hands. Not once. If I had that high a frequency, I would be dancing.

Let's look at just the pocket aces. If you read any of the books or sites about card frequency, pocket aces accounts for 0.46 percent of a player's hands. Your percentage is around 02.1 percent, which is almost five times the expected result.

From this small a sample, I'll not call you lucky, or claim the numbers skewed. Heck, I had my hot streaks with these cards too. I want to see your distribution once you hit five thousand hands. No doubt the numbers will become more in line with the math. If you're still running this hot and losing, I think you should consider Moxie's advice regarding game leaks.

If you're on the negative with these monsters, that has to be another game leak. I'll pose the question to Moxie, if a player is hitting pocket aces once every forty-eight hands, would you expect a higher ROI?

Meh,apparently I'm one of the few exceptions to the rule in this Forum Cairn and always have run pretty close to the norm win percentage with my Aces. More importantly my $/BB win rate per hand was always pretty good,so apparently I must have been playing them pretty well.

All I ever really tried to do with them is too understand that preflop AA is the nuts and postflop it's just a pair most times and you have to know when to let them go based on board texture and reads (if any) on your opps. I think being able to discern when to let AA go (and there's a line between being prudent and too tight on that front,which I struggle with at times for sure...) is one of the keys,perhaps THE KEY,to playing AA as this keeps you from paying off too many times with AA after it's been cracked.

I think it was Doyle who said that in his experience AA is a hand that will lose more big pots than it wins. I pretty much agree with that so it's the keeping the frequency of hands won,whilst limiting the chips/$ lost when they get cracked ratio that seems to me to be what tells the story with AA.

For me I've (so far at least...) been able to do that well enough that in my case I would say YES,and emphatically so,that were I to be dealt AA 5 times more than normal over a decent sample size that I would fully expect my ROI in that time frame to be higher.

Provided I don't hit one of my lose EVERY KK hand that comes down the pike streaks at the same time...
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 07:34 PM
(#17)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
Since 6-max is always higher variance than full ring, why are you playing short tables?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
The blinds come around faster plus card values change. High cards go up in value while small-medium pairs and connectors will not have the implied odds, especially when you have or are up against short stacks (less than ~50BB).

I felt 6max was best for hold'em due to his display of playing loose. I have found on those tables one can open their range some. Positions get muddled due to if the table is full the CO and UTG a next to each other generally leaving you with less opponents to call after you. It's easier to get good reads from less opponents since you are watching 5 instead of 8 players and high hands hold up better vs less opponents.

When I decided to take up cash rings I went searching for any advice I could and the same should be true for hold'em here. After trying both full-ring and 6max and both regular and short tables I found I was doing well on 6max short. (50BB buy-in)

I can tell you that most of what I know about 6max tables are from a fellow tanker and you could search who that person is in the other place we share. You could also watch the same session videos that I watched from this person and get back to me and hold'em as to your take on that.

Basically if hold'em here was known to be tight and aggressive then I would have had no problem letting him run full-ring and ultimately it is up to him as I have said he can play either. To me it comes down to personal preference and what works with your style of play.

 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 07:44 PM
(#18)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Holdem I'm not going to comment on the statement you make in post #6 except to say I know you were tilted to Hell and back when you made it so no harm no foul.

Look,I'm only seeing the same thing your own brother is seeing here---for whatever reason (pride,stubbornness,being petulant and in a self-defeating mindest after a couple of beats...)you're trying to FORCE THINGS to happen here in spots that do not call for it and that equals disaster more often than not in micros. Really at all levels,but especially in micros because it's so counter-intuitive and unnecessary.

Look at the 2 hands you posted in THAT post (the first one doesn't load BTW,so I mean the 64o and the QQ hands...).

The 6s4d hand...WHY are you even playing this hand,especially on a 6-max 2NL table? As Joe 100% correctly said,variance at 6-max tables is higher for the simple fact that the blinds hit you more often. So you have to adjust for it and the first adjustment is to NOT leak chips playing bad hands or marginal hands OOP. The blinds will suck away enough of your win rate as it is,you never want to add to that reality by leaking chips off with weak holdings.

On the flop you do get top pair and a OESD,but when the BB leads out for .10 you need to slow down right here and ask yourself what range could they have been calling with preflop that would lead to this donk bet. He may have hit a set,could have a middle over pair like 77-99,maybe even 1010,seen that hand flat calling a lot at 2NL in the day myself. At the moment all you have is top pair with a crap kicker and a draw for the OESD. You may even be behind and against a better backdoor flush draw,which takes that away from you as well.

In hindsight was the opps play here good? No,of course not. But the range of hands that he COULD have turned over that would have you crushed here is great enough that your shove is really pretty awful too.


The QQ hand,all I'm gonna say is this...if you think villain #3 leading out for 2.5x and then calling .03 into a .15 pot after your weak,weak,weak raise preflop,then leading out for 1/2 the pot off your check and consequently stacking you when you refuse to believe what they're telling you... "I have a set"...if you think THEY'RE the one playing this hand like a fish here then you really,really,really need to listen to Paul and take a 24 hour,at least,self exclusion timeout and examine a lot of things in your game.

With someone whom you DO accept as being more knowledgeable than you so that you WILL listen to them.

You're giving money away with plays like these,pure and simple.

Sounds as if you might want to consider examining your game some and slowing down is the best way to do this. Think about what is told to you here and think about going back to the 12 week schedule to allow more time to review plays and identifying leaks since this is YOUR MONEY.

 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 08:02 PM
(#19)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker41673 View Post
I felt 6max was best for hold'em due to his display of playing loose. I have found on those tables one can open their range some. Positions get muddled due to if the table is full the CO and UTG a next to each other generally leaving you with less opponents to call after you. It's easier to get good reads from less opponents since you are watching 5 instead of 8 players and high hands hold up better vs less opponents.

When I decided to take up cash rings I went searching for any advice I could and the same should be true for hold'em here. After trying both full-ring and 6max and both regular and short tables I found I was doing well on 6max short. (50BB buy-in)

I can tell you that most of what I know about 6max tables are from a fellow tanker and you could search who that person is in the other place we share. You could also watch the same session videos that I watched from this person and get back to me and hold'em as to your take on that.

Basically if hold'em here was known to be tight and aggressive then I would have had no problem letting him run full-ring and ultimately it is up to him as I have said he can play either. To me it comes down to personal preference and what works with your style of play.


I know you were responding to Joe here but I just wanted to say that FOR ME personally when we played here this rang true---I also had better success on 6-max tables than FR ("success" being a loose term as I had more leaks on rings than the Titanic post-iceberg).

Bottom line is if holdem,or anyone else for that matter,takes the lines he's taken playing the hands he's shown here they're going to see a rough go of it at either option,6-max or FR.

I know,I used to be a Fancy Play Syndromer myself.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 03, 2013, 08:36 PM
(#20)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker41673 View Post
I felt 6max was best for hold'em due to his display of playing loose. I have found on those tables one can open their range some. Positions get muddled due to if the table is full the CO and UTG a next to each other generally leaving you with less opponents to call after you. It's easier to get good reads from less opponents since you are watching 5 instead of 8 players and high hands hold up better vs less opponents.

When I decided to take up cash rings I went searching for any advice I could and the same should be true for hold'em here. After trying both full-ring and 6max and both regular and short tables I found I was doing well on 6max short. (50BB buy-in)

I can tell you that most of what I know about 6max tables are from a fellow tanker and you could search who that person is in the other place we share. You could also watch the same session videos that I watched from this person and get back to me and hold'em as to your take on that.

Basically if hold'em here was known to be tight and aggressive then I would have had no problem letting him run full-ring and ultimately it is up to him as I have said he can play either. To me it comes down to personal preference and what works with your style of play.

My initial tendency in 6-max was to open up a bit to much as I equated it to short hand tournament play. Once I got my VPIP down from the upper 20's to the low 20's my results improved dramatically. When raises are not respected, as in micro stakes cash games, opening up too wide becomes a bigger leak at 6-max than full ring.

I also think that tilting costs you more at 6-max than FR although I have no data to support that assumption.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com