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defending BB no stats

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defending BB no stats - Fri Jan 04, 2013, 08:08 AM
(#1)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner was i defending to lose preflop , did i play bad on flop?
 
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Fri Jan 04, 2013, 08:53 AM
(#2)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
While it's tempting, I don't know if calling the raise with the J8 is a wise play. Sure, he might be stealing, sure you're in position and yes they are sooted.... Without reads, I doubt it's a good play.

That said, I can see myself making the call too.

On the flop, we're screwed. Middle pair, flush draw, not really a hand to get away from. He bets, I would probably call behind. Instead, you raise. I don't know if that's good or bad, I'd opt with 'not completely bad'. However, when he ships it you know it's time to get out of dodge.

Consider what he might be shipping with. Myself, I might consider shipping here with my good kings (AK, KK, KQ), any flopped combo that gives 2 pair, or any flopped set. I might even ship Ax of spades on a semi blufff here. As such - except the Ax, all of those hands have you beat.

You basically need to hit the flush and hope it's good, or hit one of the remaining Jacks. That's definitely not giving you proper odds to call his shove.


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Fri Jan 04, 2013, 10:36 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong263 View Post
did i play bad on flop?
Hi kingkong,

I think the short answer is yes. Ask yourself why you're raising the flop? Is it for value or as a bluff? It doesn't seem to be for value as I can't see too many worse hands calling (except specifically other draws which of course would not have a pair then since you have the Js). It's also not a good bluff (I know it's a semi-bluff too but the bluff component isn't good) because better hands won't fold except for maybe a few (like QQ, AJ).

You didn't explain your reason for the play, but usually what people say in a spot like this when asked is that they raised because they didn't think the villain had anything and were just c-betting. And while that's true a fair % of the time here, we can already beat all of those airball c-bets with our pair of jacks.

I think this is a spot where we should be calling the flop 100% of the time readless. This does several good things for us:

-Gives him a chance to bluff again with his airballs
-Allows us to see the turn for an inexpensive price, which will faciliate getting our hand to showdown if we choose to proceed that way
-Let's us utilize our positional advantage to the fullest
-Prevents us from facing a reraise against his better hands like we did here... this action is a disaster for us as we are NOT a favorite over his 3b shoving range despite having a pair+FD... so now we're faced with the lose-lose proposition of getting stacks in as a 40-45% underdog (-EV) or folding off a hand that has significant equity in the pot without realizing that equity (-EV).

If we improve our hand we can put in a raise later, or bet if he checks (ty position). If we don't improve, we can call to gain value from his bluffs. We should rate to get a bit more action than normal in both categories as people lose their minds more blind vs blind.


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Fri Jan 04, 2013, 10:40 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Regarding the loose defense, yes I think it's a little loose to call. J8s makes a lot of marginal medium strength hands when it connects, a lot of top pair bad kicker, and 2nd pair type hands, and these are tricky to play well without the initiative and no reads or info on the opponent. I would rather 3b this type of spot to seize the initiative... the hand has enough post flop playability to fall back on that this is ok imo. And of course, folding is always a legal option. Readless I always look towards folding first.


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Fri Jan 04, 2013, 01:41 PM
(#5)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
my reasons are is, if i only raise with 2 pair or a sets it gets pretty easy to fold toppair when i do raise, and i was flipping if he had AK AA and he is going to not want to call with smaller pairs and maybe he had a flush draw so i was in good shape there holding 2 spades
 

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