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45 man 25 cent first hand faceing 3 all ins

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45 man 25 cent first hand faceing 3 all ins - Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:56 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604


first hand and no reads,

discuss

thanks in advance

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:03 PM
(#2)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
200 is too big a raise here B,and I'm thinking part of the reason you followed along in the shove parade is because you felt somewhat committed.

We should be raising 3x + 1x for each limper here,120. That makes it a little more palatable of a fold here,which IMO is the correct play.

There are sooooo many bad players in these that I'm NEVER risking a 75BB stack on JJ in a 4 way pot. QQ either for that matter,and you can throw AK,suited or no,in the mix. Not gonna do it.

AA or KK however,I'm shipping all day in this spot. So many Ax ragheads in these that a KK ship can easily be against 2,maybe even 3,Ax hands.

But JJ is a fold here IMO. And the 200 chip bet was too large,which consequently makes the fold harder,which may have led to a sketchy,at best,decision to ship JJ in this spot.

Win or lose B I think this is a way -EV play,especially in a .25 45 man. You MAY very well be against 3 worse hands here,but JJ is just not worth gambling 75BB in these,no reason for it.
 
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Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:17 PM
(#3)
iggyo's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 171
Yeah, I have to agree with Moxie. Initial raise was too big and calling the all-in with JJ is not recommended imo. I had a similar situation recently in the middle-late part of a tournament but it was me doing the shoving and getting 3 callers. I knew I was in trouble and did lose even though I was ahead preflop. In a multi-way pot, it's only with AA or KK I'm calling here. If it were heads up, I'd add AK and QQ to the mix, maybe JJ if I have a good read. I'd be interested what others have to say.

Lester


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Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:25 PM
(#4)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Hey B,

Just so you know I stopped the replayer when it was your action to call or fold so to look at this from where the question is.

I feel you bet 200 to get a shove back since most times this is what happens in the beginning and I also feel you had every intention to call the shove and now just in doubt cause of how many are in before you.

I see this as a fold. With this many in here you are most likely behind at least one player now and another is likely to hit the flop to put all of you behind. If the 25c isn't much to you though and are confident in your big stack game then this can easily be a call every time and even more so because of how many are in. If we lose we can walk away and load another game with no lost time and if we win the quadruple up is a definite advantage than just a double up when vs one opponent.

Personally for me it depends on my roll. One of my sites I play I am well rolled ($200+) and still played games under $1 whether it was about time, availability, or just not playing my best and didn't want to risk much. On this site I would call every time. My other sites though this is different. I wouldn't have bet so much to begin with for I don't want to risk my stack vs even one opponent without at least seeing the flop first.

 
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Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:27 PM
(#5)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty for that Moxie pip,

yes the 200 raise was too big i agree but that didn't enter in to my call.

I put the BB on a middling to weak hand or why not just raise, and the two limpers on a middle strength hand (or why not raise them selfs.)

As i saw it at the time i need to win 34 times in 100 attempts for this to be +EV

After the fact I put it into pokerstove and gave the 2 callers a range of 30% and the BB a range of 15%

JJ in this case has a 37% equality which is above the 1/3 mark I need

Giving the callers a 20% range and the shover a 10% range I thought gave JJ a 35% equaty.

Just my thinking

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:44 PM
(#6)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I'm against this play Grade B, your equity might be correct if it's a cash game but this is a tournament and your game is over if you lose. If you win on the other hand, it's not a guarantee you will even cash in this tournament never mind winning it.

By folding, you still have a tournament life and you still have a chance to win.
 
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Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:51 PM
(#7)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Raise to 120, fold to anything but a minraise. I'm never calling a shove by one player here, let alone 3 shovers. On the first hand, the only hand you should be going all in with is aces.
Even if you were right about the various ranges (I think you've given them too wide ranges) JJ does not fare at all well 4-way. If each villain was getting it in here with 15% (all pairs, suited Broadways), you have about 35% equity, but you're not going to win 35% of the pot. You're going to win it all, or (more often) go busto.
If the pot lays 34% then you're only gaining a 1% return on your money in the long run. Since you invested 25c equity in this tourney, Getting a 1% equity boost is virtually nothing. It's better to take the safe fold and know you still have 25c invested in the game. When someone busts out, he loses his 25c and it's divided among the remaining players. In effect, your equity is increased by folding here and letting 2 other players go busto.

In SnGs, the chips you win early on are not as important as the chips you conserve for later. Make the safe fold and immediately jump 2 places up the ladder towards the money. It would be much better to wait for a spot where you're at least flipping, and often a 60-40 or 80-20 favourite to double up.
 
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Fri Jan 11, 2013, 07:55 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
ty for that Moxie pip,

yes the 200 raise was too big i agree but that didn't enter in to my call.

I put the BB on a middling to weak hand or why not just raise, and the two limpers on a middle strength hand (or why not raise them selfs.)

As i saw it at the time i need to win 34 times in 100 attempts for this to be +EV

After the fact I put it into pokerstove and gave the 2 callers a range of 30% and the BB a range of 15%

JJ in this case has a 37% equality which is above the 1/3 mark I need

Giving the callers a 20% range and the shover a 10% range I thought gave JJ a 35% equaty.

Just my thinking

Grade b

This is where just running dry numbers through an equity calculator can get you in trouble sometimes B.

Pokerstove doesn't know if you're entering a hand from a ring table,an SNG,an MTT,a satty or a league game. It can't account for WHERE you are in the game as to the blinds. Tourney EV is a real consideration here,as game theory matters in a spot like this one.

In a structure where the majority of players are fish,who will happily pay us off in spots that are much more in our favor than a narrow edge spot for our whole stack like this one,it's just not in our best interests to lower OUR game to THEIR level. That,more than anything else,is what makes JJ,QQ or AK a pass here. AA and KK put us in such more of a dominant position in this same spot that those hands I would take the plunge here. Every time.

My rule 1 for navigating the micro games is always this: never try to beat bad players,make bad players try to beat me.
 
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Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:15 AM
(#9)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
I have to agree, shoving JJ into 3 previous shoves is not a long term winning play. In the early going your tourney equity trumps everything else. AA and KK (maybe) are the only hands I'm shoving here.

 
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Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:42 AM
(#10)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi all,

Personally I think you are giving us 25 cent game players way too much credit.

I remember last year I was thinking the same as you. I thought that I read a thread here about calling with TT if the whole table shoved.

I argued that it was a bad move as 1 tight player on the table could only do this with AA. It was argued that overall equity meant even though we might be behind this time, those times we won we are set in the tourny and so it was ok.

Now admittedly its me remembering this and as I remember it was not stated when in the tournament to do this I guess I just assumed it would be OK first hand

What you guys are now saying is that does not apply in this case.

Great back to the drawing board. Any good and easy resouses on tournament equity.

Ps does it change anything if you look at it as two limpers and one overshove in the BB
Grade B


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by Grade b; Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 09:04 AM.. Reason: Added ps
 
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Sat Jan 12, 2013, 01:12 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
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Hi grade b!

With JJ and 3 limpers in front of me, I'm going to make a standard raise (3BB+1BB for each limper), so I'll raise to 120. I want to keep all my raises standard to conceal the strength of my hand.

I then get 3 shoves to my raise. While JJ is a decent made hand, it doesn't play very well in multiway pots. Even if the opps are shoving every single hand, with 3 opps, JJ is still an underdog here, as I'll lose more than 50% of the time. If the opps are playing only top 20% hands (looser than what I'd assume), I'm down to winning about 1 in 3.
Normally in this type of situation, with unknown opps, I'd give a 20% range to the first shove, 10% to the second and 5% to the third. Using this, I'm down to only winning 28% of the time.

Due to this, I'm mucking here and looking for a better situation to get my chips into... one where I'm the favorite to win the hand.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:10 PM
(#12)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty everyone the over welmimg message here is its too early to be making this play,

i shall (try) make that adjustment (although not sure if it will come up again)

for those wondering how it turned out here it is.



Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:22 AM
(#13)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
ty everyone the over welmimg message here is its too early to be making this play,

i shall (try) make that adjustment (although not sure if it will come up again)

for those wondering how it turned out here it is.



Grade b

At least I'm not the only one who drinks too much
 
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Sun Jan 13, 2013, 08:18 AM
(#14)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
JWK, I like to set mine in this spot (although I do raise as well, always good to mix it up). My reasons are several fold, the blinds are low and pots are low, by raising and winning pre flop, we are only winning a low pot which isn't much to our relative stack.

Raising also at micro stakes will usually get callers but the flop will bring an A, K or Q a good portion of the time. We won't really know where we stand in the hand with so many callers.

Set mining disguises our hand and when we do hit we invariably get paid with a decent sized pot. Also if we miss and there are no overcards we can still get paid with our JJ while we can throw the hand away if someone shows us much aggression.

At micro stakes there is no thinking with our opponents. If we raise we won't get the credit JJ deserves. A raise at higher stakes might get the respect but as in this case our raise just induced 4 all in's which we don't want at this stage of the game.
 
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Sun Jan 13, 2013, 11:11 AM
(#15)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Ovalman!

I can definitely make a case for setmining here too. I'd say that in this situation, I'd raise about 60% of the time and semine the other 40%.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jan 13, 2013, 11:23 AM
(#16)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckkky View Post
At least I'm not the only one who drinks too much
sweet i just went into the relayer and pulled out the hand I lost with JJ, I dont even remember playing a 6 max tourny!!!

lets try that again



Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jan 13, 2013, 11:40 AM
(#17)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi Ovalman!

I can definitely make a case for setmining here too. I'd say that in this situation, I'd raise about 60% of the time and semine the other 40%.

John (JWK24)
The reason I brought it up is because almost all analysers will recommend raising in this spot. That's fine if it's cash but this is a tourney. The blinds are very low compared to our relative stack and it doesn't take much thinking in a tourney to realise set mining is a far more profitable play even though we only hit trips on the flop 1 time in 8.5 but we will win more than this because there will be times we will miss and still win the hand.

I'm not suggesting you should limp at every occasion but to mix it up. There's also no right way to play this hand. Over raising is fine if you feel it will take the pot down but you really need info on those on your table on how they will react. For that reason I'd prefer a limp in this spot.
 
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Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:10 PM
(#18)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
In a .25 game over betting is never going to take the hand down uncontested. At best you'll thin the herd some.

I'm not against the idea of calling and trying to set mine in this scenario with JJ either as it's giving us pot control (which early in a .25 45 man is what we want preflop with anything but AA or KK) and we have very easy decisions for the most part after the flop...J comes we're trying to get every chip from every player we can...3 unders come pretty much the same deal unless it's coordinated for a straight or flush,then we have to be wary,dry boards if someone had hit 2 pair or a set,then that's that...overs we can fold and all we lost was 1BB.

Having a super hidden hand like a set of J's here,when we do get it on a set mine,is almost always going to pay off nicely.

In B's hand I would come in for the raise to 120 because we're on the button and if this does go to a flop we'll get to see all the actions in front of us. That's worth building a pot pre-flop (and maybe getting a couple folds as well)as,again,our post flop decisions aren't going to be complicated at all in most multi-way pots with JJ.
 

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