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Need help with thought process here

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Need help with thought process here - Sun Jan 20, 2013, 03:46 AM
(#1)
kallindown's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 27
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner


The opponent was aggressive trying to boss the table and had shown down a couple of weak hands and re loaded twice.

I honestly figured him for the straight after he checked the turn but hadn't totally discounted over pairs, f/house or air. My feeling is my biggest error was not pot betting the turn but im not sure he would have folded anyway.

ANY input appreciated
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 06:09 AM
(#2)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by kallindown View Post
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner


The opponent was aggressive trying to boss the table and had shown down a couple of weak hands and re loaded twice.

I honestly figured him for the straight after he checked the turn but hadn't totally discounted over pairs, f/house or air. My feeling is my biggest error was not pot betting the turn but im not sure he would have folded anyway.

ANY input appreciated
Hi kallindown

There are several points worth noting with this hand. Let's take a closer look. Preflop, I think 55 might be a bit weak for opening from ep. Also, 3x rather than 4x would be the standard raise size.

You get a great flop. I like that you c-bet. With my strong postflop hands, I always build the pot every chance I get at 2NL. Furthermore, there are flush and sraight draws that we want to defend against. When the villain min-raises you, I would make a standard 3x reraise making it about 66. It seems like the villain has a hand he likes, so let's take him to value town.

As played, I strongly suggest betting on the turn. Now there are two clubs, two hearts and straight draws. If the villain is chasing a draw, then you have to bet now while he still believes he has a chance of winning. If you wait until the river, then the villain won't give you more value if they missed their draw.

I think you bet too big on the river. You created a spot where you got value owned. Even though the villain is laggy, it seems likely that he will fold most of the hands you are beating, especially missed draws. Betting less, keeps more hands you are beating in his range. Was the villain capable of reraising all in here with a bluff? I would have paid him off here too.

I hope this helps!

GL and have fun at the tables!

Roland GTX
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 07:19 AM
(#3)
KKNgroup's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 70
I do not think Hero should be afraid of flush or straight draws, because his hand beats them both.

As played - I do not think raising with 55 in EP is always bad.
I think with hand like Yours You should get maximum value out of villain Sometimes it is good to do that, especially if you know how to play on Flop. Maybe raising turn for a bit smaller than half a pot would give you more value.

You are beaten only by few hands (65; 66; 99; 9T). I would call on the river because of that.
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 07:52 AM
(#4)
kallindown's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 27
I think he is talking about missed value while villan has strong(ish) draws not draws that beat my hand but thank you both very much for the replies its helped already I think (and believe me i've lost sleep over it lol a few lousey dollars) but I feel I played the hand badly after the flop and should maybe have found a fold on the river but that said as I had less then 50 hands on him (my HEM only displays over this) and had seen him stack off pre with semi junk (A,10 and 55 yesss irony lol) and show down a few weak hands I guess influenced me.

Again thank you both for your time, if you ever need anything I would be glad to return the favour. craig/kallindown
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 07:58 AM
(#5)
kallindown's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 27
Oh just a small point roland you could maybe clarify, I (try to) play a fairly strict TAG approach and although I know 3bb's is a standard opening amount I have been using 4bb's for a bit now as the fish seem to call any way, they seem to need a fair bit stonger hands to 3 bet me and also it builds bigger pots when I do see the flop as I feel I have some edge on a lot of the bottom rung of the ladder. Is this correct or am I missing something ? (yet again !)
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:12 AM
(#6)
CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
Good discussion! I like what i see!



Quintuple Bracelet Winner

 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:31 AM
(#7)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I don't like the raise pre flop. If he's the table bully I like to let him use his own rope to hang himself. We only hit trips 1 time in 8 and the board texture will bring up overcards. He has position and can represent anything on the flop so I prefer a limp call pre flop.

As the hand played out I'm going broke in this spot as well. I'm not a cash expert but I like the weakness on the turn to let him bluff. It didn't work out because he thought he had you beat but this is a typical play from a bully who likes to look strong when he holds weak while likes to look weak when strong. Even if he misses the river his chips are going all in on this hand. Unlucky river but you'll get his chips over and over again because players like this will quite often cut their own throats.
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 10:04 AM
(#8)
kallindown's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 27
Ovalman you make some very valid points but just so you know my vpip% is 14.3 but my pfr% is only 8.8 and as I need to improve my pfr% I was under the impression I must raise every pot im first to enter or is this a situational "quirk" due to opponent type in your opinion (or anyone elses for that matter !)

Again kudos to everyone who has contributed
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 10:22 AM
(#9)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I'm only starting to understand my own stats but your stats should loosen up as you get closer and closer to the button. Don't look at your own stats though and think to yourself you must do this because "this" stat is a little low or high. You'll just start raising hands like KJo early position to catch those stats up, while I'm not saying it's wrong to raise it's probably not always profitable. The bottom line is your bottom dollar. Tweak those stats only very gradually. If your making money overall then does it really matter if your PFR is a little low?

There's no right way to play poker, your raise is a valid one but as you say you have a table bully that has position over you so your raise won't get rid of him, if anything it gives him the edge. I think you should always be aware who's to act after you and what way they will react to your raise. If you've nits to act after you then steal at every opportunity, similarly if you've calling stations or bullies the you have to act accordingly.

Table bullies like to stamp their authority. Just let them. All the small pots he picks up will be paid with interest when you hit big (as in this case.) You were very unfortunate in this hand but it's spots like this that we want. Let him do his fancy plays like this one. He hit very lucky but from his play I think he was trapping and his chips were always going in on the river whether he hit or not.
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 10:45 AM
(#10)
kallindown's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 27
Yes fine reasoning from what I can tell and most of what you say ties in from what I have seen already on other forums about not trying to fit your stats to your poker they just describe your style really.

So just to tie things up in your opinion given the way the hand played out is it unreasonable to expect myself to find a fold here ? I keep thinking maybe but now after disscusion not sure (just for the record if a nitty TAG I had stats on had played the hand in the same way I could have found a fold... maybe lol)
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 11:14 AM
(#11)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I'm never folding in this spot, ever.

Roland brings up several valid points about bet sizing while I think I addressed the pre flop decision. The bottom line is you want all his chips in this spot and 95% of the time you will get them. You were just really unlucky to hit the 20/1 shot when he wins.

I really liked your check on the turn, it gives him a great opportunity to bluff in this spot but he was being fancy himself and imo he's never folding that river even if an overcard comes. I use that move ocasionally in this spot, especially against a bully like him. You can take a note that he checks to trap because all a bully usually wants to do is bully you into submission. maybe next time you'll get him.
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 11:37 AM
(#12)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by kallindown View Post
Ovalman you make some very valid points but just so you know my vpip% is 14.3 but my pfr% is only 8.8 and as I need to improve my pfr% I was under the impression I must raise every pot im first to enter or is this a situational "quirk" due to opponent type in your opinion (or anyone elses for that matter !)

Again kudos to everyone who has contributed

Hi Kallindown,

Why do you feel you need to improve your PFR? You should play your style yes but also addapting to the table can be just as important. Does it matter if you have a PFR of 6, 8 or 14 if you are outplaying the other players at your table. If you get into the habit of only making the "correct" TAG move when you move up in stakes the regs will spot this and be able to explote (sp) it. Now that said yes ABC TAG as this level is the way to go just dont feel you have to raise all your hands becuase thats the "rule".

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 11:50 AM
(#13)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by kallindown View Post
Oh just a small point roland you could maybe clarify, I (try to) play a fairly strict TAG approach and although I know 3bb's is a standard opening amount I have been using 4bb's for a bit now as the fish seem to call any way, they seem to need a fair bit stonger hands to 3 bet me and also it builds bigger pots when I do see the flop as I feel I have some edge on a lot of the bottom rung of the ladder. Is this correct or am I missing something ? (yet again !)
Hi kallindown

I stick to the "standard" bet sizing preflop primarily for two reasons. Firstly, it does not draw unwanted attention to my raise. Secondly, by always raising the same amount, I conceal the strength of my hand. I would raise the same with 72o or AA. That being said, the standard sizes do vary from stakes to stakes and there can be different standards for different positions (4x utg and from the btn for example).

Personally, I would fold 55 preflop. I would open with 66 though. So, opening here is not a big mistake. I would not suggest limping. Keeping the pot small until you flop a set sounds reasonable. However, an observant opponent will quickly pick up that you limp your small pairs, and raise your premium hands. Changing you bet size because of your hole cards is an exploitable tell. For this reason alone, I would stick to a standard raise.

Finally, at 2NL, you don't need to trick your opponents. Most make enough mistakes on their own. Therefore, when I flop a strong hand, I bet/raise for value every single chance I get. I find this quite profitable. Additionally, many players play draws (semi-bluffs) very aggressively. For these two reasons, I stick by my earlier suggestions of 3-betting the flop, and betting the turn. Build the pot while the villain still believes their hand has outs to improve.

Ovalman is right that checking the turn might induce a bluff. But, I just play ABC poker at 2NL and build the pot every chance I get.

I also agree with Ovalman regarding your stats. Dont force your stats, but just trying to play tight aggressive poker.

GL!

Roland GTX
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:05 PM
(#14)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
As I said Roland, cash is not my strong point but I'd limp 70% of the time here if it was a STT or SnG. In SnGs it's about changing gears, there's nothing wrong with the raise but I like to mix it up. You say it can be a tell but if you mix things up then it won't be. A bully usually likes to take control and I'm surprised he never reraised pre flop. In this case we'll have to muck our 55 if he re-raises and we'll lose even more chips.

I'd limp 70% of the time, raise 10% and fold 20%. My fold rate would probably be higher depending on how much of a bully he is.

Last edited by Ovalman; Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 12:07 PM.. Reason: sending mixed messages! limp 70% not 80% after I thought about the hand
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 02:31 PM
(#15)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
i dont get the turn check on the turn unless u were going for a check raise . and if opening to 4 BB is what u were opening i like opening 55 from mid position ,, its mid position not early. u got unlucky on river,
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 02:50 PM
(#16)
kallindown's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Hi Kallindown,

Why do you feel you need to improve your PFR? You should play your style yes but also addapting to the table can be just as important. Does it matter if you have a PFR of 6, 8 or 14 if you are outplaying the other players at your table. If you get into the habit of only making the "correct" TAG move when you move up in stakes the regs will spot this and be able to explote (sp) it. Now that said yes ABC TAG as this level is the way to go just dont feel you have to raise all your hands becuase thats the "rule".

Grade b
Hi there Grade B, I just feel im missing a few value spots and calling too many limps with out punishing/exploiting their "weak" plays. I rarely miss fat value in pots and in this hand looking back it is probably borderline fancy play for these stakes. That said however I think you are bang on about your stats judgement and do not fear I don't intend to force them just look for a few more value spots to raise. ABC TAG is my aim but to be fair im probably too tight sometimes due to amount of tables played and not wanting to get in too many difficult spots.

Great input bud keep it up
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 02:59 PM
(#17)
kallindown's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
Hi kallindown

I stick to the "standard" bet sizing preflop primarily for two reasons. Firstly, it does not draw unwanted attention to my raise. Secondly, by always raising the same amount, I conceal the strength of my hand. I would raise the same with 72o or AA. That being said, the standard sizes do vary from stakes to stakes and there can be different standards for different positions (4x utg and from the btn for example).

Personally, I would fold 55 preflop. I would open with 66 though. So, opening here is not a big mistake. I would not suggest limping. Keeping the pot small until you flop a set sounds reasonable. However, an observant opponent will quickly pick up that you limp your small pairs, and raise your premium hands. Changing you bet size because of your hole cards is an exploitable tell. For this reason alone, I would stick to a standard raise.

Finally, at 2NL, you don't need to trick your opponents. Most make enough mistakes on their own. Therefore, when I flop a strong hand, I bet/raise for value every single chance I get. I find this quite profitable. Additionally, many players play draws (semi-bluffs) very aggressively. For these two reasons, I stick by my earlier suggestions of 3-betting the flop, and betting the turn. Build the pot while the villain still believes their hand has outs to improve.

Ovalman is right that checking the turn might induce a bluff. But, I just play ABC poker at 2NL and build the pot every chance I get.

I also agree with Ovalman regarding your stats. Dont force your stats, but just trying to play tight aggressive poker.

GL!

Roland GTX

More good points, I think iv actually absorbed more info from this thread then had sunk in after much study long live PSO !

Noted and agreed im not sure I liked the call there its not the way to get fat value at these stakes as I was already pretty sure he had a playable hand so I think that was my 1st error but that river call still gives me nightmares lol.

Your other point about standard raises as I open for 4bb's EVERY time from EVERY position as I need to keep everything a little simple for now till I can afford table ninja. As this differs slightly from your advice is this exploitable or acceptable for the time being ?

thanks

Last edited by kallindown; Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 03:04 PM.. Reason: Forgot stuff doh !
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 03:01 PM
(#18)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong263 View Post
i dont get the turn check on the turn unless u were going for a check raise . and if opening to 4 BB is what u were opening i like opening 55 from mid position ,, its mid position not early. u got unlucky on river,
I'm assuming the OP Cbets the flop about 2/3rds of the time and our opponent is probably expecting a CBet.

I like this play, it's deceptive.

A Cbet on flop can indicate anything, hit, miss or draw. A check on turn indicates weakness. A loose aggressive opponent see's the weakness and see's an opportunity to steal. A check raise or check call will work in either case and we get paid. It's a good move to make against a loose aggressive player or a maniac. The bully in this case never took the bait because he had an agenda of his own which is why I think he's calling/ pushing the river regardless.
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 03:08 PM
(#19)
kallindown's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong263 View Post
i dont get the turn check on the turn unless u were going for a check raise . and if opening to 4 BB is what u were opening i like opening 55 from mid position ,, its mid position not early. u got unlucky on river,
I was actually going for a check raise hoping that my call and his previous aggression factor would be enough for him to bet out regardless of his holding but he threw a spanner in that one :p If it is just a bad beat thats fine by me but all this has helped me understand the thinking a lot better and considering this is the 1st ever hand iv posted I cant wait to reap further benefits in the future.
 
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Sun Jan 20, 2013, 03:13 PM
(#20)
kallindown's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
I'm assuming the OP Cbets the flop about 2/3rds of the time and our opponent is probably expecting a CBet.

I like this play, it's deceptive.

A Cbet on flop can indicate anything, hit, miss or draw. A check on turn indicates weakness. A loose aggressive opponent see's the weakness and see's an opportunity to steal. A check raise or check call will work in either case and we get paid. It's a good move to make against a loose aggressive player or a maniac. The bully in this case never took the bait because he had an agenda of his own which is why I think he's calling/ pushing the river regardless.

Ha ! You must have started writing my post before you finished yours but you have it pretty much spot on with my thought process here (which is the reason I posted as im aware its far from perfect in a lot of spots) I figured if I get a bit of help early on straightening it out the less trouble I will be in the long run.

Spot on thread and advice guys much better then I had even hoped I may now allow myself a small amount of sleep zzzZZZZ

You mentioning my c-bet rate made me pull HEM up to see what my actual rate was and I was pretty shocked its only 48% !!! and c-bet success only 45.8%

This is due I think to me never c betting without outs or made hands apart from the odd time I feel they are going to call down with a weaker drawing hand etc. How bad is the leak and what exactly can I do to improve please ? I don't just want to randomy start firing at nearly every flop and (this next part is a thought flaw I think at this level) I make sure I check raise sometimes with both air and strength so they know just because I check doesn't mean I have no hand.... helllllp ! (again lol)

Last edited by kallindown; Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 03:29 PM.. Reason: Found another leak in my game I think !!!
 

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