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25 NL 6-max zoom: AA raised on horrible river

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25 NL 6-max zoom: AA raised on horrible river - Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:10 PM
(#1)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Hi all,

In this spot I am against a 22/15 4-tabling reg at 25NL.

flop: a fairly wet flop for AA n I am c-betting for value against overpairs, all draws (str8 and flushes) and top pair kind of hands.

turn: a 6 arrives bringing in the open-enders 89. However we keep firing to get value from the rest of his range.

river: top pair just become trips, the flush arrived and basically we can only get value from JJ, QQ, KK. I decided to fire a smallish bet for thin value n in all honestly because I didn't want to check/fold....
No reason of course to discuss the insta-fold at the end



i. Would u think that check/fold is the line to take on this river?
2. While considering this hand, I had an interesting side-thought. What would be the line to take if we held 9Ts, JTs (which are both in my range there) ?
Given it goes bet/call flop, check/call turn and we arrive at the river with the same pot size n stack size.
 
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Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:27 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,513
(Head Trainer)
Hi f1n,

Let me ask you a question... how many streets of value do you think you can get from worse hands from a TAG 4-tabling reg?

It's an important question to answer before we take our first flop action. My answer is 2 streets at best. Yet the actions you took would be consistant with if you thought we could routinely get 3 streets from worse hands.

Since the villain has position on us, and can threaten a commitment decision with a raise at any time, we may have to fall back to a passive stance at some point playing 139bb's deep in a single raised pot unless we can reasonably get 3 streets of value from worse with a bet-bet-bet line. I don't think that's the case vs. a TAG reg.

So I think c-betting the flop is fine as expected, and I might check-call the turn. If he was calling once with weak 1 pair hands he would simply fold those to your turn barrel, but if you check he may well bet them 1 time, or check back to induce planning to call a river bet (1 street of value barreling becomes 2 streets). If he was on a monster you won't get raised and not know what to do. If he's got a decent draw he can't make a very strong semi-bluff raise on the turn to which we don't know what to do. And with this line we can get our hand to showdown without being confronted with a stack decision at any point. If he bets 2.50 on the turn and we call, then a river bet would be around $6 so we get to showdown for ~ $10 which is less than a third of our stack. That's kind of important imo because if this particular opponent wants to play for stacks this deep in a single raised pot, we are probably not good often enough to do so, but he can semi-bluff effectively and threaten us with just this.


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Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:30 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,513
(Head Trainer)
BTW I didn't address what to do on the river on purpose because A) it's a genuinely tough spot, and B) it's not nearly as important discussing the river as it is looking at how we got here in the first place (proceeding without a plan for our hand) and how we could have done things differently that made sense for our situation and also don't end us up in this gross river spot.


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Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:01 PM
(#4)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Hey Dave,

Thanks for the immediate and detailed reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi f1n,

Let me ask you a question... how many streets of value do you think you can get from worse hands from a TAG 4-tabling reg?

It's an important question to answer before we take our first flop action. My answer is 2 streets at best. Yet the actions you took would be consistant with if you thought we could routinely get 3 streets from worse hands.
Thanks for pointing that out, because I didn't really gave any thoughts on that matter.
As of lately, I m becoming a bit paranoid with getting too many loose calls and I have started going bet/bet/bet, while at a previous point in time I might have even checked the flop, planning to bet turn and river.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
BTW I didn't address what to do on the river on purpose because A) it's a genuinely tough spot, and B) it's not nearly as important discussing the river as it is looking at how we got here in the first place (proceeding without a plan for our hand) and how we could have done things differently that made sense for our situation and also don't end us up in this gross river spot.
A) If you think our decision on the river is a tough spot, then I might have a more serious problem, because I literally insta-folded the river. I have not played him that much to consider him capable of bluff raising this river.
B) I totally aggree that the most important issue is to decide to just get 2 streets of value from him. However don't think that I started barrelling 3 streets without a plan on how to respond to a raise. That's exactly why i insta-folded the river to a raise and why I would have folded to a flop raise as well.
 

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