Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

50NL FR Zoom: QQ facing heavy action pf

Old
Default
50NL FR Zoom: QQ facing heavy action pf - Fri Feb 01, 2013, 08:24 AM
(#1)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
I'm just starting to test out 50NL Zoom and found this hand strange. The btn 3-bet was 4.5x my raise from the CO. I read this as a big, but non-premium pair such as 1010, JJ, QQ. It seemed rather heavy to be KK or AA. I was considering 4-betting until the sb 4-bet over the top. I don't have enough hands on the btn to have much of a read. His stats looked pretty standard.

QUESTION:
Did I completely misread the action from the BTN? What range would you put him on when he 3-bets so big from position? If this is standard I need to adjust my thinking.

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...598_9628D85FC6

Thanks!

Roland GTX
 
Old
Default
Fri Feb 01, 2013, 11:39 AM
(#2)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Hi Roland GTX,

I wouldn't try to make much of the 3-bet sizing, till I get some reads on the player.
Up untill recently, I myself used to 3-bet to the same amount against minraises, 2.5X, 3X opens. e.g. at 25NL i always made it 2.5$ against 0.5$, 0.63$ and 0.75$. Therefore, what he might be doing is to try to keep u away from a cheap flop since u are minraising pre. If you had opened 3x = 1.5$ his 3-bet would be exactly 3x=4.5$, so it's not profoundly big, if he made it 6$ that would definitely be weird.

I also have a question of my own for your line. You said you were considering 4-betting (if the blinds folded of course); in that case what are you gonna do if he 5-bets you, just fold (thus turning QQ into a bluff) or are you playing for 160bbs with QQ against an unknown at this spot?
 
Old
Default
Fri Feb 01, 2013, 01:09 PM
(#3)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1nlaion View Post
Hi Roland GTX,

I wouldn't try to make much of the 3-bet sizing, till I get some reads on the player.
Up untill recently, I myself used to 3-bet to the same amount against minraises, 2.5X, 3X opens. e.g. at 25NL i always made it 2.5$ against 0.5$, 0.63$ and 0.75$. Therefore, what he might be doing is to try to keep u away from a cheap flop since u are minraising pre. If you had opened 3x = 1.5$ his 3-bet would be exactly 3x=4.5$, so it's not profoundly big, if he made it 6$ that would definitely be weird.

I also have a question of my own for your line. You said you were considering 4-betting (if the blinds folded of course); in that case what are you gonna do if he 5-bets you, just fold (thus turning QQ into a bluff) or are you playing for 160bbs with QQ against an unknown at this spot?
Hey there! Good point about 3-betting the same amount regardless of my raise size. I do the same sometimes at 25nl. That may well explain what the btn's line.

I don't like playing oop in unclear spots with big pots. So, yes if I 4-bet, my range becomes very narrow and I would expect him to fold 1010 and JJ. If he 5-bets me, then I know I'm in trouble and could fold. This is decisive and avoids spewing all my stack in a postflop fiasco. All this went through my head in the 2 seconds it took the sb to place his 4-bet. This keeps me safe, even if it isn't optimal.

Don't use this against me at 25nl

Roland GTX
 
Old
Default
Fri Feb 01, 2013, 01:20 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi Greg,

I wouldn't be suprised to see a premium hand here... it sounds like you're trying to equate his bet sizing to hand strength only, but that's generally only true for fish. He may be sizing this bigger for a variety of reasons... for instance, remember the effective stack is 164bb's deep and you have only min-raised, that could be a logical reason for a thinking player to size their 3b larger with AA, to avoid giving you a cheap shot at their 164bb stack.

With player 2 cold 4-betting out of the SB I would give this one up without reads, as without reason to suspect otherwise I think both their ranges are pretty strong here.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Fri Feb 01, 2013, 01:36 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
I don't like playing oop in unclear spots with big pots. So, yes if I 4-bet, my range becomes very narrow and I would expect him to fold 1010 and JJ. If he 5-bets me, then I know I'm in trouble and could fold. This is decisive and avoids spewing all my stack in a postflop fiasco.
It's probably much better to play QQ oop vs. JJ and TT than it is to turn QQ into a complete bluff.

Just because you see a flop doesn't mean you are required to stack off post flop.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Sat Feb 02, 2013, 11:01 AM
(#6)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
It's probably much better to play QQ oop vs. JJ and TT than it is to turn QQ into a complete bluff.

Just because you see a flop doesn't mean you are required to stack off post flop.
I feel like I have an handle on ranging this spot now, thanks!

However, I need more help with the "turning my QQ into a complete bluff" line. I am revealing my inexperience here, but that is how we learn. Yes, I have some huge gaps in my cash game knowledge.

This is clearly a fundamental concept that I need to better understand. Can anyone recommend a video that discusses this. Or, anyone want to take the time to explain it to me...

Thanks again!

Roland GTX
 
Old
Default
Sat Feb 02, 2013, 12:20 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi Greg,

Not sure where in the vids to look specifically, I know the topic has come up during classes though.

What's meant by turning it into a bluff is taking an aggressive action with a hand that has tangible value already, and planning to fold it if reraised. Sometimes you'll hear someone say "you might as well have 72o then, you're turning your QQ (or whatever) into 72o".

Sometimes this term gets misused a bit. You might take this action with QQ planning to fold to a reraise but not really be turning the hand into a bluff.... if you think your aggressive action will be called by worse hands (so it is for value) but if you get raised again you're no good. This commonly comes up against loose-passive calling station type players.

So in this hand you said you felt if you 4b, he would fold TT and JJ to this action, so the 4b can't really be for value. You basically said you thought worse won't call, so it's like turning your hand into a bluff (but it's a bad bluff because better hands won't ever fold). In this hand it would actually be better to do this with 72o if he's folding hands as strong as JJ in response.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have more questions on it.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Sat Feb 02, 2013, 12:21 PM
(#8)
f1nlaion's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
edit: by the time it took me to explain it, Dave already answered, making my answer all the more embarassing.
I would very much appreciate any corrections on my explanation as well.


First of all, I would like to say that under no circumstances do I feel so experienced, to be giving theoretical lectures to other people in this forum. However I would like to try and explain how I understand this concept, for the sake of the learning experience; by exposing my understanding of this matter the analysers or more experienced players can point out my mistakes.

The issue of turning a strong (or in general a hand which rates to have equity in a pot) hand into a bluff comes into play when by raising the pot with a hand we lose the equity the hand holds when we subsequently fold it to further action. This concept becomes clearly understood with some examples.

e.g.1 Imagine the same spot like the QQ hand above, where you hold 57s instead of QQ. You again open in the cutoff, the button 3-bets you, and you come over the top turning 57 into a bluff planning to obviously fold to further action. In this case since you don't expect 57 to hold much equity into the pot you turn it into a bluff. However when you do that with a strong hand such as QQ, you lose the equity your hand rates to hold in the pot. Therefore when you 4-bet 57 and QQ at that spot, what you do is 57==QQ==bluff. You equalise the equity of 57 and QQ in a pot.

e.g.2 Another common spot is for example in a blinds war. You hold TT on the bb and a loose opponent on the sb opens for a raise and you come over the top with a 3-bet. If again in this case you are not willing to play for stacks and subsequently fold to a 4-bet, you shouldn't 3-bet in the first place, reopen the action and lose your hand's equity out of the window.

All the above are my understanding of "turning my hand into a bluff" from the training sessions provided by the trainers of PokerschoolOnline.
I hope this is even in the least helpful and not incorrectly stated.

I also look forward to a proper explanation from a trainer

Last edited by f1nlaion; Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 12:24 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sat Feb 02, 2013, 02:41 PM
(#9)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Good stuff, both of you!

I have NEVER made a complete bluff by re-raising a complete garbage hand (72o) preflop LOL! This might explain the hole in my knowledge base regarding bluffs.

OK, I think I understand the concept now. I think I recognize spots where it is relavant. Now, I just need to work on applying this knowledge at the tables. New goal for Feb

Thank you very much Dave and f1nlaion! If we are afraid to admit our weaknesses, we are never going to improve

Roland GTX

f1nlaion: Ill be keeping a closer eye on you from now on at 25NL Zoom
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com