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Open Limping

View Poll Results: Is it OK to open limp in early position
Yes 5 23.81%
No 16 76.19%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Open Limping - Fri Feb 01, 2013, 07:15 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Hi all,

Is it acceptable to play an TAG style and open limp in early position. Rather than a yes no answer, (trying to post a poll for that if I remember how) I love to here the reasons why.

Thanks in advance

Grade b


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Fri Feb 01, 2013, 07:35 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
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NEVER

It gives too many opps behind you, with position on you, the correct odds to outdraw you.

The only way you'd ever see me do it is a mis-click!

John (JWK24)

open-limp = way, way too passive. It's what a tight/passive would do.


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Fri Feb 01, 2013, 07:44 PM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Hi JWK,

good point we don't want to give away good odds to our opponents, but what if you are trying to manufacture good odds to your own drawing hand. Maybe set mining with 77 for example.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Fri Feb 01, 2013, 07:47 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
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If you open-limp with small/mid pairs, it turns your cards face up. I want to always keep my opps guessing as to the card I'm holding.

ex: I make a std open raise. You don't know whether I've got AA, 77, 33, AK, JTs or the tank hand (27o)! Because all the bets are the exact same sizes, you have no clue which I've got.

John (JWK24)


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Fri Feb 01, 2013, 07:58 PM
(#5)
effsea's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,609
never.......come on........

never should the word never be use in poker,

Play only by the so called rules......will make you in the long run a very easy read......hiccup

cheers
 
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Fri Feb 01, 2013, 08:16 PM
(#6)
effsea's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,609
sorry....have to add,

Rules of poker are great...........please do not get me wrong here.....I'm for them,

But not all the time......hiccup,

To confuse the poker book guy is the way,

cheers
 
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Fri Feb 01, 2013, 08:20 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
The biggest problem with open limping isn't giving opponents odds to outdraw you imo (presumably a hand for which this would be an issue you'd have raised with), it's that both solid players and aggressive players will raise you. So you are frequently put in the position of folding off your limp, or playing a raised pot out of position without the initiative (and the latter is one of the biggest leaks in NLHE).

I can't vote for never as an absolute term, but I would vote usually not. But obviously this is a loaded question and maybe not a very useful poll in that regard. I had a live tourney where I adjusted to my weak opponent heads up by open limping the button. He was very prone to betting when he hit the flop, and check-folding when he missed. The money was shallow so this strategy adjustment specific to this situation and villain seemed the most low variance way to chip up and grind him down.


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Fri Feb 01, 2013, 08:30 PM
(#8)
effsea's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
The biggest problem with open limping isn't giving opponents odds to outdraw you imo (presumably a hand for which this would be an issue you'd have raised with), it's that both solid players and aggressive players will raise you. So you are frequently put in the position of folding off your limp, or playing a raised pot out of position without the initiative (and the latter is one of the biggest leaks in NLHE).

I can't vote for never as an absolute term, but I would vote usually not. But obviously this is a loaded question and maybe not a very useful poll in that regard. I had a live tourney where I adjusted to my weak opponent heads up by open limping the button. He was very prone to betting when he hit the flop, and check-folding when he missed. The money was shallow so this strategy adjustment specific to this situation and villain seemed the most low variance way to chip up and grind him down.

yep....thats what l really mean.....hiccup

Dave knows me so well.......always in my head....lol

He also knows my #1 rule

cheers
 
Old
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Fri Feb 01, 2013, 08:52 PM
(#9)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Asked for a reason and it's to read or trap our opponents.
 
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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 12:01 AM
(#10)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Hi JWK,

good point we don't want to give away good odds to our opponents, but what if you are trying to manufacture good odds to your own drawing hand. Maybe set mining with 77 for example.


Grade b
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
If you open-limp with small/mid pairs, it turns your cards face up. I want to always keep my opps guessing as to the card I'm holding.

ex: I make a std open raise. You don't know whether I've got AA, 77, 33, AK, JTs or the tank hand (27o)! Because all the bets are the exact same sizes, you have no clue which I've got.

John (JWK24)

What JWK says here is a big,big reason NOT to open limp. If you make it a habit to raise on amount with a certain group of hands,raise a different amount with another,and limp with yet another---well like he said,your range will be so narrow to players that are paying attention that you may as well have your cards face up.

And b,a large part of set mining is getting into spots with our set mines that will be very profitable,not marginally profitable. Because we'll only hit our set 1 in 8 times,roughly. If we open limp and get no,or very little,action behind then we're unlikely to build enough of a pot to make our set mining attempt profitable enough to warrant it in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by effsea View Post
never.......come on........

never should the word never be use in poker,

Play only by the so called rules......will make you in the long run a very easy read......hiccup

cheers
Lol...hiccup...guess I'll have to be the asshat to point out that YOUR first rule of poker...is to NEVERlisten to you...hehe...hiccup...

Sorry dude,the irony imp was poking at me hard.

Seriously thought,yeah,you're right eff,absolutes in poker,as in many other things,aren't the best idea.

But I think the reason you'll see John,myself and others use terms like,"Never do this" sometimes is because the play in question is just such a horrible one,as a general rule,that the word never really encapsulates the urgency of trying to communicate why a certain play is one to mostly be avoided like the plague.

But you're for sure right that being so rigid as to really never be capable of doing something at a poker table is being too inflexible and that's a leak of another sort.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
The biggest problem with open limping isn't giving opponents odds to outdraw you imo (presumably a hand for which this would be an issue you'd have raised with), it's that both solid players and aggressive players will raise you. So you are frequently put in the position of folding off your limp, or playing a raised pot out of position without the initiative (and the latter is one of the biggest leaks in NLHE).

I can't vote for never as an absolute term, but I would vote usually not. But obviously this is a loaded question and maybe not a very useful poll in that regard. I had a live tourney where I adjusted to my weak opponent heads up by open limping the button. He was very prone to betting when he hit the flop, and check-folding when he missed. The money was shallow so this strategy adjustment specific to this situation and villain seemed the most low variance way to chip up and grind him down.

As Lang and eff said...never as an absolute term in poker...not the best idea,though I know I'm "guilty" sometimes of saying "never do this". Like I said earlier it's to really emphasize that a certain course is such an unprofitable one over the long term that you're best served to think of it as something to be avoided almost always.

But as Dave shows,there ARE spots wherein ANY strategy can have it's value. Open limping,especially from early position as Grade B is asking about here,is something that's so bad that I would need to have some very narrowly defined parameters insofar as depth of money,player types and things like that before I would consider it. Heck,you notice for instance that the example Dave had to use was HU,so while we may be OOP there's not really any early position

One thing that always helps me when thinking of doing this is realizing that hands I would want to play for an open limp from early position is really a hand I'm better off folding anyway. So now I've screwed myself up to play a hand that I don't feel is good enough to raise OOP. That's not going to be anywhere close to a profitable play over time.

So while I would very,very rarely open limp from EP,to say that I would NEVER do it is not quite right. Almost never,a very near almost...would be a better fit.

After all I once swore I would NEVER play hands like 72 and 85 but a gaggle of Moosehead addled n'er-do-wells from the Tundra convinced me otherwise (with the aid of a turd-like DR...).
 
Old
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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 09:10 AM
(#11)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
How about the following arguments

1. Open limping let's you see more flops cheaply

2. Allows you to disguise a big hand

3. It favours good post flop play

4. It incourages other players to get involved

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Old
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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 09:36 AM
(#12)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I see I buck the trend on this but you should use every weapon in your arsenal. Grade b puts some very valid points.

If you raise every time you enter a pot then I'll just rock up and re-raise you when I'm stronger. All those little pots you steal will be lost in a single pot I enter. I'm not saying limping is right nor is raising, just mix it up and don't give any reads on yourself.

Another important point is who's to act behind you. If you've a couple of maniacs then it's fine to limp re-raise. Think of it this way, if you raise standard early position and there's 2 maniacs behind you then both will most likely call your raise. You're out of position for the rest of the hand and you won't really know where you stand in a 3 way pot if overcards hit the board.

In a different scenario if you limp and let one of the maniacs raise then you can 3 bet and isolate the maniac and have a far better chance of winning.
 
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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 10:27 AM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post

3. It favours good post flop play
You're out of position with absolutely no information what-so-ever about the opp's hand. That is the absolute worst post-flop situation that I can be in.

John (JWK24)


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Old
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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 10:42 AM
(#14)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
At Micro stakes you generally have a poor indication of a players range because their range is generally so wide. If you raise early position you're generally in a 3 way pot with 2 players with a 30-40% VPiP. How do you stand if if there are over or under cards? or wet boards? or any flop in particular when there are no foldem players in the pot? imo it's wasting chips unnecessarily and giving the advantage to these players who have position over us.

As I said, you should mix things up, I will raise a mid pocket pair ep but I'll also limp with it. I'll limp with a premium in the example above if I know I've a maniac that will build the pot for me.

If you always play the same way then you will become predictable. Any semi decent player will pick up on it and adjust their game and destroy you.
 
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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 11:00 AM
(#15)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
An old poker adage goes: "If you can't raise don't call."

It doesn't mean you must raise if you can. Poker is about assessing a situation and trying to find the way to maximize our EV. One part of that is not being overly predictable, which can be difficult for a TAG. Open limping in certain situations (mostly against passive opponents) can be +EV. However, any strategy overused and lose value.
 
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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 11:59 AM
(#16)
effsea's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,609
Howdy Again,

Just a couple things 1st.

I'm no teacher of this game and always follow my poker rule #1.

That being said.......hiccup

btw....love this thread so far,

All I'm really trying to say is.......

Using thinking like......never/always/std.raise or call etc.

imo....is wrong...

Rules of poker Should only be used as a guide in this game of poker, not as a you have to play only the rule way...hiccup.

At no time did everyone at my table ever know the so-called rules of poker...everyone plays,and I have played most limits and types of games.

In a perfect world.....all would know....but like I have said,

everyone plays,

So anyways.....I'm all for rules...but only about 75% to 80% of the time,

The other 20% to 25%.....I will limp/play atc/shove or whatever to confuse the heck out of you...

The only thing I want you to have noted on me is......

What the heck does that fish have now...

Just the way I see it folks.

I'm wrong all the time...the wife tells me so.

Just my opinion folks and always remember rule #1

cheers all

Last edited by effsea; Sat Feb 02, 2013 at 12:04 PM..
 
Old
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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 01:00 PM
(#17)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
How about the following arguments

1. Open limping let's you see more flops cheaply

2. Allows you to disguise a big hand

3. It favours good post flop play

4. It incourages other players to get involved

Grade b
Ok, fair questions. Again I'll restate the never say never philosophy. But I am usually not open limping so here's my response to these.

"1. Open limping let's you see more flops cheaply"

No, not necessarily. Your opponents have to cooperate with that goal. If I am on your left for example, you'll come to find this goal to be realized much less often than you'd like. So if you find a table dynamic where this is routinely being allowed, then take it into consideration and you might open limp some holdings that would welcome a cheap flop. But there are a lot of players these days that fall all over themselves to isolation raise limpers.

In addition, in either case (whether this is being allowed or not) it has the drawback of costing you a lot of small pots that would have been yours by taking the initiative in the hand. Over time this makes a big difference in your bottom line.

"2. Allows you to disguise a big hand"

Again, not really. It actually does the opposite imo. When you limp-reraise with AA it turns your hand face up (this is one of the most commonly known plays now), when you take the gloves off the big hand is revealed, and because you limped there's usually very little money in the pot when this happens. If you are entering for raises your big hands are disguised by the simple fact that your raising range is wider (assuming you aren't nitting it up). This disguises them better if you have decent balance to your opening range imo.

"3. It favours good post flop play"

Again I disagree with this statement. I agree with John on this one, it actually creates bad post flop play by forcing you into more situations where you are playing without the initiative and often without position as well.

"4. It incourages other players to get involved"

This one I agree with, it's true! How good or bad this is, well, it depends. If it encourages a lot of isolation raises on you, then it's a bad thing. If it encourages a lot of over-limps with worse hands which would have simply folded facing a raise, then this is a good thing! If those over-limps with weaker hands would have called a raise anyway, then it moves back into the bad thing category. Ultimately I think it creates more bad things than good in many game dynamics, but certainly there are some cases where #4 would make for a good reason to open limp. A common example might be like the low stakes live game at the casino near my house, when I go play there... several of the regular players over there will limp with any ace but not call a raise with A-rag. If I'm on a table with a few of these types behind me, I will tend to open limp EP and MP more often with hands like AT or A9 where they will overlimp with A-rag but fold their worse aces to a raise. Also there has to be little isolation raising and more frequent limped pots to the flop for this to be a consideration, otherwise I would just fold these hands from EP and open them for a raise from LP, playing MP by ear.


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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 01:02 PM
(#18)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Some good discussion so far, thank you all.

one of the reasons i asked is that it seems to be accepted poker practice that you can't open limp but its ok to limp second into a pot.

Say we take the if you don't have a hand good enough to raise with you should fold concept and take it to the other extreme, that would mean any pot contested should be basically all in pre-flop.

So if I want to see some cheap flops but don't want to give away the strength of my hand how about i fold my lowest pairs 60% raise 10% and limp 30%. Mid pairs i will raise 50% limp 50%.
Premium pairs raise 90% and limp 10%. Similar numbers for a variety of hands, I don't have a plan yet as i think its something i might do at higher tables than the ones I play now.

Grade b


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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 03:43 PM
(#19)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778


Villian 8 had just lost a big pot raising with rags, perfect opportunity to limp.

This is the $5k Chrome freeroll just now.
 
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Sat Feb 02, 2013, 03:58 PM
(#20)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778


Result would probably been the same in this hand but think about the 2 open callers behind me? If I limped then 1 of the 2 could have raised, donk on the button was always shoving but look at the hand differently.

I think I give reason to limp even though I'm 1 vote in 8 in the minority.

Give me a reason to play these 2 hand differently?
 

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