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10NL Zoom 6max, Can you fold KK preflop 100BB deep?

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10NL Zoom 6max, Can you fold KK preflop 100BB deep? - Fri Feb 08, 2013, 01:47 PM
(#1)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Hi everybody,

The question I have been asking myself ever since I started playing poker a bit more seriously. Can I ever fold kings preflop? Since I am losing on average almost 1 full buy in a day KK vs AA preflop finding a way to fold KK at least some of the time I am up against AA would be very nice. So here I am folding KK preflop for the first time in my life. However, in retrospect I am not sure if I like it that much. We were only 100BB deep and it was button vs blind but his 4b sizing and 6b jam made me feel sick to my stomach. Can you ever make this fold against an unknown 4 tabling regular or did I just burn $4? I do not know if regulars at 10NL can show up there with anything but KK or AA in which case it is 6:1 for AA.

Have you ever folded KK preflop in a cash game? What would have to happen for you to even consider doing it?



Cheers

Tommy
 
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Fri Feb 08, 2013, 05:12 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Tommy,

While I have folded KK preflop on rare occassion, never have I done so on 100 bb effective stacks after 5-betting. We put too much money in the middle to fold now, he would basically have to show us the aces to make folding correct, and I don't think this action shows us that reliably in a button v blind raising war. If he sometimes has QQ or AK it's a disaster to 5-bet fold KK even though on some individual trials we get away from aces. Any other worse hands (JJ, TT, a random spazz) only make it better for us.

So the important lesson to take away here is to have a plan. When you 5-bet you should already know that you A) can't put this much of your stack in and fold KK with any comfort and B) what range of hands will get it in with you here. If you think you will only get action from AA and fold out all worse hands (including AK and QQ) then don't 5-bet, flat his 4b and keep all the worse 4-betting hands in the pot.


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Fri Feb 08, 2013, 05:17 PM
(#3)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey Tommy

Unfortunately in this hand you did burn at least $4. That is ok though. There are two answers you are looking for, and thankfully, I know both. First, you should not have folded here. Second, it is possible to fold KK preflop for 100 big blinds.

However a caveat on the second point. This spot, is not close to a fold. A lot of things have to go into folding KK preflop and one of the biggest is position. Which position are you in, which position is your opponent in. The latter being more important.

I think you could have improved this hand in two spots. The first is just moving all in preflop instead of making a small five bet. When you make this small five bet you do not gain anything you wouldn't gain from shoving. In fact, you can look weaker moving all in and can expect to get called by QQ+ AK at the least, if not TT+ AQ on occasion. Also moving all in allows you to make the same play with weaker hands like AK without your opponent, a regular, being able to learn things about how you play those two hands differently.

The second place to improve is in not folding. You are a 4:1 dog against AA with KK preflop. So if you are getting 6:1 to call off, you have a profitable call, even if your opponent shows you two aces.

I am not sure how you calculated the price. It seems to me we have to put in 6$ to win 14$. This means we need 30% equity, which is about 2.3 to 1.
 
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Fri Feb 08, 2013, 06:51 PM
(#4)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Thank you for your answers. Just want to clarify a few more things:

1) I have never seen 5 or 6bet shove in position at 10NL 6max Zoom with anything worse than KK that is why I got a bit too paranoid I guess
2) The way I used to play KK in this situation before was just to 5b shove like you said but the problem was that I only ever got called by AA everything else would fold(with the expection of b vs b when i got called by worse a few times). Once a guy even showed me he had QQ and folded. This is why it is so difficult at Zoom sometimes and why I get lost and do not know what to do.
3) At the moment the hand was being played that was actually my plan: 5b small and fold to a shove. When 4tabling zoom I do not really have too much time to go over each decision in depth and somehow my plan looked reasonable to me. Time to play less tables I guess. Do not want my reasult oriented side to take over me again.
4) The 6:1 ratio was just a ratio of how often he has aces when I think his range is KK+. Now of course my decision does not make much sense mathematically and I should have just called and prayed for a K on the flop.
6) Yes the table position matters a lot and is also a reason why I folded. People do not try to get it in so much when they are in position. If I had position on the villain in this hand I would call for sure because in my eyes it is now much more likely that he does not want to see a flop and is pushing AK and QQ also. Maybe a stupid asumption I know but that's just how I think sometimes and why there is still so much to learn for me.
7) button vs blinds war does not seem to be so fierce to me at these stakes. Many people know how to be aggressive blind vs blind but I do not think I have seen that many 4bets button vs blinds. Sure people 3bet the button a lot but the button usually does not come over the top. I do it on occasions but I think I am one of the very few at 10NL.

All in all it seems like the best long term strategy for 6max is to just 5bet jam in these spots and not worry about it too much when 100BB deep. Or maybe try stop and go? Might get called by QQ I guess...

So one last question:
When do I start worrying about folding KK? 150BB deep? 200BB deep? At zoom I like to keep bigger stack so this may as well happen to me in the near future and I do not want to be burning money again.

Thank you again, your answers helped me a lot!

Tommy
 

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