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Early in $3.50 27man

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Early in $3.50 27man - Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:33 PM
(#1)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
So villan has only been at the table for 4 hands. So no real read on him other than he's limped one previous pot and he's calling from SB now.



Good CBet spot for me since loose callers from the blinds will often give up on the flop if they miss.

Turn brings a flush draw and some added equity to fire a 2nd barrel. I make it small to give myself better odds on the draw. I would expect most opponents that will fold will do so to any size of bet so keeping it cheap.

Villan check-raises over the top allin.

We have 1035 chips remaining to call into a 3030 chip pot. Only one card to come.

Would you play the hand different to this point?
Would you Fold or Call?




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Last edited by ahar010; Thu Feb 14, 2013 at 04:51 PM..
 
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Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:43 PM
(#2)
adohole's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,083
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heey andy i think rather how to play this hand its pretty important to know if he was multitabling. if he was lie a 6 tabler its a call here i think at this level they are already capable of making nice plays. if it was like a 20 tabler he is going to play verry st8 forward because he doesnt have the time to think of a nice move so then its a fold. and if your read was that he was a complete fish its an insta fold from what i have seen bad players lik to check shove the turn with the nuts. so it al depends on that.

further i would have played the hand probably the same. sometimes i would check the turn though because you have chances to hit a nut flush and you A high might be good there aswell.


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Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:58 PM
(#3)
Barbzz's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 51
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Gday Andy

I think this hand "should" be played differently (if I had this hand I probably would have played it the same way you did lol). Pre- flop and flop obviously standard, I think you should check behind the turn here - a turn bet is a semi-bluff because not much worse is calling, but for the bluff component I dont know what better hands are folding - any pair on the flop probably isn't folding to a turn bet (assuming this guy is loose passive because he limped and also called a PFR from the SB) since the 8 paired. So I think checking the turn would be better. As played after betting the turn and being shoved on, the guy will have an 8 a lot of the time I think, giving you 7 or 8 outs (9 clubs, disregard 2c and his other hole card in clubs) which prices you out of your draw here, so its a fold... It is possible that he has like 9c7c here but I think most people check/call that rather than check/shove... And when you fold you still have over 1000 chips which is still enough to play with
 
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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:37 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hi Andy,

Interesting spot.

I think the c-bet is good as you said, he's likely to give up if he missed.

But he doesn't give up, so my best guess is that he's got something. Although the turn card gives us flush outs, I don't think I would bet here. Barbzz said it nice, semi-bluffing needs a bluff component, but this turn card should not scare him into folding too often, and if he flopped top pair we'll probably get check-raised now that he made trips. I think it's better to check behind and take a free card.

I would begrudingly fold to the check-raise shove. We need about 35% equity to break even on calling. Out of all made hands as a whole, we aren't close. Even the best case scenario of made hands is barely there... like 2 red 5's for instance where our overcards and all flush outs are live, is only 38% equity. If he's got a hand like 98s we're at only 16%. Then of course we are drawing dead to 22, 66, 88, 86s. In order to call here we need to know he'd do this with worse draws, so we can sometimes be getting it in really good. With no reads I don't think we can assume this from a turn check/raise jam. Also I wouldn't assume he's doing this with a hand like 2 red 5's either. It's probably a lot of the bigger hands that are crushing us along with just a few random bluffs. So with still over 33bb's left my preference is to pass.


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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 03:00 AM
(#5)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Thanks for the responses.

I hadn't thought much about checking the turn. Obviously the cheapest way to draw. Reasons I fired the 2nd barrel was to maintain initiative in the hand. This flop looks like it misses me and if I check the turn villan has a free bet on the river unless I want to hero call with A high. Betting the turn means i'm unlikely to face a bet on the river unless he's got the goods. When he just calls and I hit A, Q or club I've built the pot nicely to get max value.


So I did fire the 2nd bullet and had the sickening on crap moment when he moves in. On the way to clicking the fold button I was checking my pot odds to see if I could draw profitably. And I thought has he got an 8.

I thought if this guy likes to check raise, why didn't he do it on the flop with top pair.
If he's got an 8 what does he think I have that can call his shove. My bet on the turn is small, doesn't show massive strength.

What would he move in with? A hand that doesn't want a call? A hand that wants to win the pot now. I thought at best this guy has a pocket pair. Which means my over cards are live.

Adding up my outs I think I have 15 which was 30% plus a bit. Plus a few KT,KJ clubs where I'm crushing. Getting 3:1 I thought thats enough to pay for the curiousity and it's early in the tournament so no time invested.

So I called thinking how smart / silly I was expecting to see 33,44,55,77 or A8. And he turns over .

A little unexpected, But woohoo. Then as the K peeled off on the river I was thinking he can't have that hand very often.

Which brang me here for my level check

Do people think he moves in with an 8?




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Last edited by ahar010; Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 03:02 AM..
 
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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 06:07 AM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
I'd give him credit for an 8, because you said he's loose. Bad players don't tend to think of how to maximise value. They aren't thinking about what you can have that calls. They just think "I haz trips. All in!"
 
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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:16 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahar010 View Post
This flop looks like it misses me and if I check the turn villan has a free bet on the river unless I want to hero call with A high. Betting the turn means i'm unlikely to face a bet on the river unless he's got the goods.
But you can actually call a reasonable river bet for about the same price as your turn bet (same chip investment) except now you will get value out of worse hands that bluff the river (would have folded on the turn), and avoid getting check-raised by an 8.

Also if you do hit the flush, the same principle applies with him likely betting into you and not believing you when you raise since he won't put you on the back door flush after checking the turn... you still get a big pot out of the deal (or if he's bluffing he just folds, but you still get that extra bet from these holdings that would have folded to a turn barrel).

Quote:
Do people think he moves in with an 8?
I do. He's basically an unknown, but I think it's possible for anyone to move in with an 8 here. A solid player can do this as they will think your range includes a lot of overpairs after the 2nd shell, and their play can look bluffy, so they'll get called. A fishy player will think, like Arty said, "I haz trips, all in!" without consideration for much else.


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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:27 AM
(#8)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahar010 View Post
Which brang me here for my level check

Do people think he moves in with an 8?
it´s pretty obv. that he makes the move only with 33-55 and any two broadways in that spot. the more important question is would you have called without the flush draw, with a hand like TT no club? - btw. i like the C/R here a lot against a reggish player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I'd give him credit for an 8, because you said he's loose. Bad players don't tend to think of how to maximise value. They aren't thinking about what you can have that calls. They just think "I haz trips. All in!"
how do you come to the conclusion that villain is a bad player? cause his bluff got caught? - his bluff was goood and we know hero had a hard time to call it. as the decision was based only on pot odds i guess hero would have folded without the flush draw so how big do you thik the chances are that hero is on that flush draw and how many times will hero fold? - i think this bluff is a nice and very aggressive move and it doesn´t look to me like the move of a inexperienced fishy bad player. of course it could have happened by accident only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
A solid player can do this as they will think your range includes a lot of overpairs after the 2nd shell, and their play can look bluffy, so they'll get called.
wouldn´t it make more sense the other way round? - to donk into the pot to make him look drawy and semi bluffing and may get a cheap river card...

Last edited by DivorcedDuck; Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 11:37 AM..
 
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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 01:34 PM
(#9)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
But you can actually call a reasonable river bet for about the same price as your turn bet (same chip investment) except now you will get value out of worse hands that bluff the river (would have folded on the turn), and avoid getting check-raised by an 8.
Yeah lots of little factors. His river bluff (or value bet if he hits the free river card) is likely to be a little more than my turn bet. I also miss out on just folding out any of his equity in the hand right now. If the player is passive (haven't seen him make a bet yet) then raising turn means I can still get extra value on the river when I hit and he plans to check call again with his rubbish.

Dunno if I need to be worried he has an 8 that often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I do. He's basically an unknown, but I think it's possible for anyone to move in with an 8 here. A solid player can do this as they will think your range includes a lot of overpairs after the 2nd shell, and their play can look bluffy, so they'll get called. A fishy player will think, like Arty said, "I haz trips, all in!" without consideration for much else.
I think alot of fishy 8's will be donk betting or check raising the flop with top pair. Solid player will only be getting value from overpairs though, even then maybe not since most people seem to be folding. They may decide to reraise smaller rather than move in, since my turn bet is smaller. Plus most solid players probably not calling with 8x from SB out of position.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DivorcedDuck View Post
The more important question is would you have called without the flush draw, with a hand like TT no club? - btw. i like the C/R here a lot against a reggish player.
With TT. Instead of pot odds, it would just be a decision of do I think I'm good. Does he not have a 8 atleast one third of the time. By the same logic I guess I would think he doesn't have an 8 and would still call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DivorcedDuck View Post
his bluff was goood and we know hero had a hard time to call it. as the decision was based only on pot odds i guess hero would have folded without the flush draw so how big do you thik the chances are that hero is on that flush draw and how many times will hero fold? - i think this bluff is a nice and very aggressive move
I dunno if it was a good bluff. Didn't really make sense to me. Although sounds like most people think he could have an 8.

I wouldn't have fired the 2nd barrel without a flush draw or pocket pair. So the chances of the hero having something to call would be higher. I think with AQo I would have checked back and perhaps called a river bet as TheLangolier suggests.




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Last edited by ahar010; Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 01:45 PM..
 
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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 02:10 PM
(#10)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I'd give him credit for an 8, because you said he's loose. Bad players don't tend to think of how to maximise value. They aren't thinking about what you can have that calls. They just think "I haz trips. All in!"
I dunno if I thought majorly loose. But two passive enterances to the pot in 5 hands I was thinking passive caller. Which is why I thought the shove was more pocket pairs than bluffs. I was very surprised seeing his hand.

Dunno I think if the player calls with 8x and hits top pair on the flop they'll probably bet it so checking top pair on the flop to the raiser is some semblance of thinking.

Then deciding to slow play the trips on the turn. But instead of flat calling or min reraising like a good "bad player" would still setting the trap, they jam it instead.

But I guess you can never account for the randomness of some players actions.




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Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:59 PM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahar010 View Post
Dunno I think if the player calls with 8x and hits top pair on the flop they'll probably bet it so checking top pair on the flop to the raiser is some semblance of thinking.
Ah yes. I wasn't paying close enough attention. The type of player that would shove with trips would almost certainly donk the flop, so you're probably right that he doesn't check-raise the turn with an 8.
 

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