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5NL - AKs in SB v UTG

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5NL - AKs in SB v UTG - Sun Feb 17, 2013, 10:42 AM
(#1)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
The AK OOP v UTG scenario again
Villain is unknown

Q.1 Flop c/c? or c/r?
The way I see it vs UTG and with the bloard texture c/c > c/r > c/f

We have two overs + gutshot (medium value hand), but what I don't like is that we are floating OOP? So maybe c/r is more powerful? (but then again against UTG what can we fold out?)

Q.2 Turn I suppose is a clear case of c/c?

Q.3 River: is this a c/c or c/f? or perhaps can we b/f like 1/2 pot here for thin value to get called by worse (AQ, KJ? I don't suppose an AK would raise our river bet to blow us off a tie with that board?

 
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Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:00 AM
(#2)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
are you sure you have posted the right hand to your questions? - i can´t see why you ever want to play check/fold or bet/fold the river with the nuts!

i think your line is way to tricky and passive. calling with AKs pre oop, c/r the flop and maximizing fold equity, calling the turn with a ton of draws out there... to be honest you wasted a lot of value in this hand in my eyes.

3bet pre,bet/raise flop, bet/raise turn, bet/raise river. you want to get the money into the middle and you want your opponent to make a mistake so bet!!!!!
 
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Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:08 AM
(#3)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by DivorcedDuck View Post
are you sure you have posted the right hand to your questions? - i can´t see why you ever want to play check/fold or bet/fold the river with the nuts!

i think your line is way to tricky and passive. calling with AKs pre oop, c/r the flop and maximizing fold equity, calling the turn with a ton of draws out there... to be honest you wasted a lot of value in this hand in my eyes.

3bet pre,bet/raise flop, bet/raise turn, bet/raise river. you want to get the money into the middle and you want your opponent to make a mistake so bet!!!!!
HUH?
 
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Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:18 AM
(#4)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
HUH?
the hand in the replayer... hero is making the nut flush on a non paired board.

yes there´s the possibilty of a straight flush but do you really expect villain to openraise 97s in UTG1?
 
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Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:11 PM
(#5)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by DivorcedDuck View Post
the hand in the replayer... hero is making the nut flush on a non paired board.

yes there´s the possibilty of a straight flush but do you really expect villain to openraise 97s in UTG1?
I have a pair of Aces bro. The T is a heart not a diamond.
 
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Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:57 PM
(#6)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
I have a pair of Aces bro. The T is a heart not a diamond.
mindbuggling... i just was like what the heck, replayed the hand and you´re right. have played the hand several times and always thought you made the flush. sorry

nevertheless, i have thought why you want to play C/C or C/F river and couldn´t find a reason, may be that´s why i thought it´s a flush. must be or i shouldn´t watch replayers on high resolution.

ok to start it over again...

i don´t like to just flat with AKs pre. it´s hand which needs to hit to realize its value postflop in an easy way. otherwise you have tough decisions on flop. in addition AKs is performing good versus most villains 3bet calling ranges and puts a lot of pressure on villain which is good for the fold equity on later streets.

you get a board which isn´t unlikely to have hit villains preflop range better zhan you did, assuming villain is a standard 6-max regular. so your decision to play C/C is based on the hope to hit the turn or that villain is giving up the hand. the point is both is unlikely to happen and in case you hit an A or K it connects to the board, so yes a C/R would be a good idea. to say if it´s profit or not we would need some stats of villain, but we´re speculating on 6 outs only and to justify the call we have to win the hand from time to time without a hit too.

the turn shows exactly the dilemma. now you decided to play C/C again. to be honest the chances that villain is on a draw aren´t big but you never showed any strength in the hand and this gives villain the possibility to bluff a lot of time and because you didn´t 3bet pre villain comes to the turn with his whole range including all kind of draws he might play UTG.

when things become drawy i don´t like to play with wide ranges. it makes things way more complex and most important your equity goes down. that´s why i don´t like C/C. C/C can be nice if you have a definite read that villain is very bluffy, otherwise it´s most of the time burning money. another important thing is that draws are overplayed very often and you want them to pay. your line was passive so far and a fishy villain will call your bet with KK or QQ a lot of times.

the river is close to a blank, ok 79 or Q9 would make a straight, but should be unlikely for UTG.

as the river is almost a blank and you decided to play it passive, best would be to keep ranges wide and allow villain to bluff, so C/C is as played best line for flop.
 
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Sun Feb 17, 2013, 04:25 PM
(#7)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Pre-flop is perfect.
Villains range is something like 88+ AK, AQ, AJ+ and maybe KQs/KJs.
So he's either got an underpair that will likely be one-and-done, he hit a set, top pair, or he has a hand like yours, a straight draw and two overs.
As with 3-betting pre, raising this flop folds out the hands you're beating, and gets shoved on by hands that are crushing you.
There's actually a case to be made for folding on the flop, because hitting an ace or king might actually be bad for you. (Reverse domination by AJ or KJ).

But this price is about right to check-call and see if you hit one of your outs on the turn, or at least see if villain gives up. Against nittier players that c-bet less than 50%, you could just fold the flop.

The turn is really tricky. At first it looks like a standard check-call, but what are you actually beating here? AQ and KJ are the only hands I can think of. Everything else that bets here either made two pairs, a straight, or already had a set.
This just might be one of those situations where you improved to TPTK, but still have to fold.
If you call, then you have to call all rivers that don't pair the board, but I don't think villain bets 3 streets with many hands you beat. You're basically hoping for a chop or a 3rd barrel from AQ.
 
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Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:21 PM
(#8)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Pre-flop is perfect.
Villains range is something like 88+ AK, AQ, AJ+ and maybe KQs/KJs.
how do you come to that conclusion? - we have no stats of villain. in my experience most 6-max players aren´t even close to be that tight. i would agree if it´s played on a full ring table. the range you described is closer to a 3bet calling range than to an opening range.

as the rest of your statement seems to be based on that range i really would like to know that before commenting on the other things you wrote. some stuff makes sense but other not. for example you describe the turn as tricky but you think villains flop play was good. when i look at heros hand on flop it´s obvious that improving on turn also will improve villains range a lot and you have to discount some of your outs. your statement shows that you see that dilemma on turn but you didn´t take it into account on flop.
 
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Sun Feb 17, 2013, 07:25 PM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
I'll admit I'm a full ring specialist. What sort of range are regs opening UTG in 6max games at these stakes?
 
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Sun Feb 17, 2013, 09:05 PM
(#10)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I'll admit I'm a full ring specialist. What sort of range are regs opening UTG in 6max games at these stakes?
take a tight MP2 range and add 3-5% for a nitty reg. 6-max micro games are pretty wild. for example 6-max openraising starting hand chart of pokerstragegy.com shows for UTG a range of 22+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo which is 11% and those charts are tight compared to most players.

a lot of times you will face players who openraise UTG ranges of 15% or more which looks like this 22+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo+, KJo+.

so 3bet pre is narrowing down their range to the range you described and it´s highly profit with AKs.

the interesting thing is that most 6max players aren´t more experienced than full ring players on same stakes but play so much wider ranges... it´s really fun and the possible edges are really big compared to full ring.

Last edited by DivorcedDuck; Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 09:09 PM..
 
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Mon Feb 18, 2013, 10:32 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Hi Geo,

I'm in the 3b pre camp here vs. an unknown. I like flatting vs. a tighter player and 3-betting vs a loose guy, here we can go either way but I'll err on the side of raising for value.

This flop situation is actually not bad for check-raising. It's basically a semi-bluff of sorts, although we can have the best hand. But it's a board texture that is better for our preflop calling range than it is for his preflop raising range really. And if we get called we have a variety of outs... 6 overs, 4 outs to the nuts, and back door diamonds. Check-calling is ok but leaves us lost on turns that don't improve us, and it sets up too many scenarios where it goes check/check and we lose at showdown to pocket 7s or QT, hands which he'd fold to a c/r on the flop. And if he reraises the flop chances are good he has hands which dominate some of our outs, like TT+ for example.


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reply to hand - Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:49 AM
(#12)
glenn161274's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 146
I would also be 3 betting in this position against a unknown, then i would lead the flop and turn. And the hand then is a totally different proposition. How you played it you could lead out on the river but your line is unbelievable so he could reraise a river lead without having the best hand. So i think i can find a call with his bet on the river, as you have taken such a passive line he could be betting worse .
 

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