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Don't know how to deal with 4-bets

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Don't know how to deal with 4-bets - Fri Feb 22, 2013, 04:49 AM
(#1)
EvokeNZ's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
Final table of a 25c 45 man sng. I took a big chunk out of this same guy with another KK just a few hands earlier and he had 99 on 2Q6 flop. guess he was pretty loose as he's just busted out as I was typing this.



I just never know what to do when someone re-raises my raise or 3-bet. I've watched many a video but still yet to find one that tells me what to do in that situation.
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:26 AM
(#2)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Hey mate,
I think pre flop you have 2 choices, Shove or fold.
Looking at the stack sizes, you could fold your way up the money ladder, but if you want first place you have to shove them back in his face.
Even if he is a total nit I think I would shove QQ, KK AA, and even AK.

Post flop with an Ace on flop you really need to shove or fold.

Since you only called pre flop I guess you should prob fold with the Ace out there.

Good Luck
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:49 PM
(#3)
CanuckMonkey's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 185
I'm very curious to see what the expert hand evaluators say to this; it is a situation that doesn't come up much and I never know what to do either.

In this case, since you mentioned that the villain is maybe on the loose side, I would 5-bet all-in pre-flop. His 4-bet makes it pretty clear that he's committed to his hand, and with KK you're beating anything but AA, and it sounds like he could be 4-betting with much, MUCH weaker hands. I see this as a case of "Get Your Chips in Good", since you're almost certainly way ahead pre-flop.

Once that ace hit on the flop, I don't know how I would have proceeded. If I was very confident that this guy was a loose player, I might push in response to his tiny flop bet--but I'd hate it as I was doing it, knowing that a loose player could be holding all sorts of ace-x combos.

Here's where a good read on him would be nice--is he the type to make a small bet on the flop with a strong hand to encourage a call? Would he semi-bluff something like a gutshot with KQ? Does he c-bet consistently? I'm guessing that you don't have much of this information, though--I almost never do.

And now I sit back and wait for the more experienced voices to chime in.

-- CanuckMonkey


Bracelet Winner

 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 04:16 PM
(#4)
EvokeNZ's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
Chuckkky, I figured since I had quite a bit of chips 3x the raise was more appropriate than shove or fold. I often play <10 BB so I was quite pleased to get 3x for once. But maybe you're right.
In the end, I decided I didn't want to be 9th in a tournament that pays 7 and folded as I had enough chips to last. As it was I came 4th, which is quite an achievement for me!

CanuckMonkey, this seems to happen to me ALL the time, I just don't know what's up with that. I guess it's more frequent in OSL where we should just not get involved, or maybe my image is very weak or something.
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 05:48 PM
(#5)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvokeNZ View Post
Chuckkky, I figured since I had quite a bit of chips 3x the raise was more appropriate than shove or fold. I often play <10 BB so I was quite pleased to get 3x for once. But maybe you're right.
In the end, I decided I didn't want to be 9th in a tournament that pays 7 and folded as I had enough chips to last. As it was I came 4th, which is quite an achievement for me.
Hi Evoke
well done on 4th.
Sorry i wasn't clear on what I meant preflop.
I think your 3 bet was good, but I would of 5 bet shoved pre flop.
Especially if you think he was loose and maybe targeting you for taking his chips earlier.
Chuckkky
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:26 PM
(#6)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I'm shoving to his 4 bet pre flop unless I have any info otherwise - and that note has to be so specific that he has AA.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:54 PM
(#7)
EvokeNZ's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
incidentally I just found this video called Daling with 3 bets but I can't watch it due to not having 20 VPPs. http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...-with-3-Bets-2

Also found ahar's video on playing 45 man $1 sngs, but it says it's episode 2 and I have no idea how to find episode 1, it doesn't seem nearby and the search feature is not helping.

I wish there was a listing of all videos by presenter and tags for each video so you can search by those too. (ps. If you guys are busy, I'll volunteer to categorise them all :P)
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:18 PM
(#8)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
I use this...http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...videos-ahar010

and I think you want vid #104

rolo ps also this is very useful http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/articles/Poker-Videos

Last edited by rolo834; Fri Feb 22, 2013 at 07:20 PM.. Reason: added a ps as i always forget something
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:37 PM
(#9)
EvokeNZ's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
legend, thanks rolo
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:57 PM
(#10)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
shove preflop

there´s no real 4betting on micros and in the given situation you´re sitting on a stack of 20bb. even when you make the 3bet smaller, like 2 x, a call is committing both of you to the pot. so make a note that villain is a donk for 4-betting instead maximizing his fold equity and shove.

also make a note on his hand, as it´s defining his "4bet-range". 4-bet range on micros is 99% of the time equal to broke range.
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:09 PM
(#11)
mr mendes 20's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvokeNZ View Post
I just never know what to do when someone re-raises my raise or 3-bet. I've watched many a video but still yet to find one that tells me what to do in that situation.
Hi EvokeNZ,

It's a tough spot! I think like everything in poker the answer will not be "always do this" or "never do that" but: it depends.

In this particular case, there are some things worth considering:

1) How loose was the guy opening from EP before? Does he open light? Or is he a nit? This info should be the most important to decide your next move. But you know he's loose, so ship it.
2) Do you really want to see a flop with KK at this stage and decide from there, taking into account that calling will take a big bite off your stack? I think it's really shove or fold. (In my case it would be for sure a push, cause it's microstakes)
3) BUT: Do you want to be taking a pf risk against a bigger stack at this stage? Because just by crossing your arms and having a coffee you are already earning money here, since there are three people behind you with smaller stacks. If the pf raise came from them, you should for sure put them all in. But it's an early position raise from a bigger stack than you, reason enough to consider folding the cowboys. Who cares he's loose or tight, he can cover your chips. He could even have 55 and make trips or whatever. But no calling. And specially not calling the flop to fold the turn.


Time Vault Champion 2013
 
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Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:11 PM
(#12)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Hi EvokeNZ,

With KK I would just be looking to get in in preflop. The 4bet is a little worrying but you can't flat and fold without losing too much prizepool equity. I would just decide to go with the hand and 5bet allin as others have said.

We sometimes run into AA, but sometimes other stuff too. We won't run KK into AA often enough for this to be a big leak in our game with 20BBs. It is the bubble, but as I say you're losing a ton of prize equity anyway when you call and fold.

On the flop I think you've played ok. I would call the first bet. Turn is really bad card cause basically eveything beats us now except QQ.

Most important thing to take away from the hand is what a bad spot calling half our stack preflop put us in. We really need to decide preflop what we are going to do and stick with it.

Nice work on the comeback

Andy




Quad Bracelet Winner

 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 12:28 AM
(#13)
EvokeNZ's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
thanks everyone for the advice. i'll try to be more brave with my monster hands.
 

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