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$0.25 45-man SnG, KQs UTG, 13 left, do I call the push from behind?

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$0.25 45-man SnG, KQs UTG, 13 left, do I call the push from behind? - Sat Feb 23, 2013, 03:49 PM
(#1)
CanuckMonkey's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 185


There are 13 left with 7 spots paid. I'm in 12th at the start of this hand and Villain is 13th. We have only six players at our table. I get KQs UTG and make a standard 2.5bb opening raise, then villain pushes all-in. If I call and lose I have less than 3bb left in my stack, with the blinds about to hit me. If I fold now, I have over 8bb left to look for a better spot. Villain is playing 21/16/13.3 (VPIP/PFR/3-bet) over 78 hands, but with him being the short stack I don't know if his range may have opened up.

My questions:

1) I started the hand with a 20.5bb stack. Was my standard raise the right play here?

2) After Villain pushes and it is folded around to me, does it make sense to risk most of my remaining chips (and basically my tournament life, with the blinds about to hit) by calling, or should I have just laid it down and waited for better?

Cheers,

-- CanuckMonkey


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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 04:12 PM
(#2)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
You started here with a 10BB stack and KQs is either a push or fold at this stage.

I'm folding here but laying it down as played presents a tougher spot and a far more mathematical choice. I'd still lay down in this case but it's player dependent. I'd have to know their range, a tighter player I'd fold but a looser player I'd call.

imo you made the mistake pre flop, KQs looks good and works well in limit but UTG it's a -ev hand. That's not to say you shouldn't play it, just be aware of the poor value in it when you hit or miss.


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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 04:32 PM
(#3)
CanuckMonkey's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 185
Hmm, good point about it being push or fold pre-flop, Ovalman--I've been letting my standards slip a bit there, and only thinking push-or-fold when a standard raise would be a third of my stack--and since a standard raise is only 2.5bb at these blinds, I just went for my typical raise. But yes, it definitely was a push-or-fold situation right from the start. Good to keep in mind.

-- CanuckMonkey


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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:09 PM
(#4)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Hi Canuckmonkey.

This is a spot you're going to run into a lot in the .25 45 man's come bubble time.

With our stack at 10BB and us sitting 12 0f 13 players left standard raising is out the window at the moment. It's push/fold poker for us.

So the question becomes...is KQs good enough to be shoving from UTG with 10BB left? In this case I say yes,as the UTG spot is mitigated by there only being 6 players on the table,thus only 5 left to act behind us. For all intents and purposes we really may as well regard this as being the same as if we were sitting MP2 on a 9 player table,and I would definitely be looking to ship 10BB into an unopened pot from MP2 with KQs.

We have complete fold equity against everyone but villain #4 here and our equity against both blinds is excellent,and without antes in play yet the blinds are going to be the most likely players to try and find a reason to call. The thing we're mainly looking for that would give us pause when making a push here is a big stack "Ace-ragger" type on one of the blinds because that's the type of dope who will call off something like 30-50% of their stack with any Ace and have a slight advantage over us. That type of player,with a big stack,in either blind is the only thing that's going to worry me when deciding to ship it in this spot. Just because we really want to avoid players that can make bad calls with hands that we actually trail. If we run into a big hand here...well that's going to happen from time to time and we have no control over it,so there's no real purpose to sweating it.

And players that are capable of calling us with worse and do,we're fine with that.

As played I think you're probably behind and very possibly crushed here so the fold is fine. But the standard raise/fold for 25% of your stack is a spew. That's why we need to be in a push/fold mentality as much as anything else...we simply CANNOT be raising/calling for this much of our stack pre-flop and then folding to any further action or after a blanked flop and action to follow.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sat Feb 23, 2013 at 06:13 PM..
 
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Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:28 PM
(#5)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Hi CanuckMonkey,

Yeah the real difference is you only have 10BBs here rather than 20BBs. If it was 20 then it would be an easy bet and fold.

With 10BBs as you know and the otehrs have also mentioned it's a push fold situation.

I would probably push with KQs being short handed. We need to make a move to get some chips for the FT. When called it's often by AJ and under or pocket pairs and in reasonable shape against all those.

Andy




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Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:59 PM
(#6)
CanuckMonkey's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 185
Thanks Moxie Pip and Andy, this has been an excellent reinforcement of one of the fundamentals I had been letting slip--the need for an aggressive push-or-fold playing style when down to 10 bb (and for me, I think I should be playing push-or-fold at 12 bb and under, just based on my overall playing style and the patterns I need to get into at this phase of an MTT).

It is kind of a weird cognitive dissonance experience to have learned just a month or so ago about this fundamental concept, and to find myself slipping out of it so soon! Very glad I posted this hand, it will tighten me up and improve a lot of my other MTTs as well.

-- CanuckMonkey


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Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:08 PM
(#7)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckMonkey View Post
Thanks Moxie Pip and Andy, this has been an excellent reinforcement of one of the fundamentals I had been letting slip--the need for an aggressive push-or-fold playing style when down to 10 bb (and for me, I think I should be playing push-or-fold at 12 bb and under, just based on my overall playing style and the patterns I need to get into at this phase of an MTT).

It is kind of a weird cognitive dissonance experience to have learned just a month or so ago about this fundamental concept, and to find myself slipping out of it so soon! Very glad I posted this hand, it will tighten me up and improve a lot of my other MTTs as well.

-- CanuckMonkey

If you're a little bit of a newer player and/or not comfortable with your post flop play then there's nothing wrong with sliding your push/fold range up to 12BB. I wouldn't advise higher though. And remember,you want and need to be disguising your hand strength as best as you can so if you're at your push/fold level you do it with all hands,not "well I want to get more action with my Aces of Kings,or I'm not super sure about 44 here so I'll min-raise". Regs who are taking notes on you will trip to stuff like that quickly.

Also pay close attention to player types left to act,player types whom have already acted and you're considering shoving over,position,YOUR image and one that too many players don't account for...effective stack sizes. These oft times will dictate the action of players left to follow and have to be accounted for when making your decision.

And keep in mind that at around 7BB or less (this number can change depending on effective stack sizes...) you need to start accounting for your hands showdown value more than your fold equity,as the probability of your being looked up on your shove will rise.
 

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