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Confused - Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:40 PM
(#1)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
the lessons on poker basics on here are confusing, just the calculating outs and the 4x2 rule.

Can someone give me some examples so i can actually ask questions as to why it is the way it is.

it seems as in the calculation outs section, i add cards that they didnt add, and i have no idea why they wouldnt add them, it doesnt make any sense to me.

and of course with that goes the 4x2 rule...

ya it is "easy" to learn poker i keep reading, but it seems to not be, for me i guess.

I hated poker before about a week ago, ill be honest, but it seems to be one of the few things that plays to my strengths, being reading people and baiting people...

any help is appreciated.
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:51 PM
(#2)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I played gut feeling poker well before I could count my outs.

While counting outs might seem important, I'd concentrate on hand selection and position first.

It will come.


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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:54 PM
(#3)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
hey thanks for the reply..

i understand position playing and the difference in starting hands, monster vs strong...playing speculative hands in position

which is why im askin about the outs and what not.....I would rather play for real money ( i am in the US so i would have to find a different site) because i played on some play money sites, but you got people going all in pre flop with a 5 and 2 off suit, and end up either buying the pot or just getting lucky, its annoying not playing with people that actually have a strategy..
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:57 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fon1cs View Post
but you got people going all in pre flop with a 5 and 2 off suit, and end up either buying the pot or just getting lucky, its annoying not playing with people that actually have a strategy..
Those people are everywhere. I've seen them anywhere from a freeroll to a $365 WSOP Circuit event. Just because it's real $$ doesn't mean the play will be any different.

Honestly, you WANT them at your table... it's who you'll win your $$ off of.

John (JWK24)


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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:03 PM
(#5)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
lol you make a good point, im pretty sure i read that in the course somewhere too

but before we delve off into off topic lol,

anyone have any examples to run by me so i can ask specific questions as to why or why not?
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:06 PM
(#6)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,022
(Community Coordinator)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fon1cs View Post
its annoying not playing with people that actually have a strategy..
If you are looking for a really good play money game I would recommend joining the 'Tankers' home game club.

There's lots of really good play money players there that take the game seriously.

If you PM 'effsea' or 'JohnnyOak' they will be able to give you the details

Raiser


Moderator

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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:08 PM
(#7)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I didn't answer your question btw.

How I work it:

For a flush draw if I have have 2 suits and there are 2 on the board: I have 9 outs.

Open ended straight draw, 8 outs.

Gutshot, 4 outs.

There are others.

The 4/2 rule works but I try and count outs I need on the next street and not implied odds for tourneys because you ant to hit before you go broke


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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:29 PM
(#8)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
You have Kh Jh ,and the board is As Td 2c . One of the four queens in the deck will make you a straight. If your opponent has a middle pocket pair, e.g. 9c 9h , then you have additional outs, as any king or any jack would give you a higher pair.


^an example from the training thing......Why are they calculating something that the avg person would have no idea about, it doesnt make sense

unless im looking at these things completely differently than most people do, which i tend to do a lot......What is the point of mentioning something that we have no idea about (the opponents hand)
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:32 PM
(#9)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
Thanks for the info royal raiser
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:41 PM
(#10)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
In the hand above, it doesn't matter what your opponent has, it's what you need. You need a Q for the nuts which is the best hand so you count 4 outs.

You are 4 x 2 to hit on the turn which is 8, you can turn that into a percentage which is 8% or 1 in 12.

For implied odds you can work out the flop play to the river by multiplying by 4 which works out to 16%.

You can tweak these numbers by 1% for a more accurate calculation but I never have so don't worry about it at micro stakes(I should work on that really!)


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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:49 PM
(#11)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
so another words, if were to be playing and that ended up being my hand (K J) and that ended up being the flop

just fold eh...
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:59 PM
(#12)
EvokeNZ's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
one thing that isn't explained clearly in the training is that when you're calculating outs, you're calculating what you need to make the BEST hand, not just any hand.

in nanonoko's video, he says "just always put the opponent on top pair (with one card on the board) and then work out what you need to beat that"
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:01 PM
(#13)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
It depends on betting and how you read your opponent. It's generally a good idea to fold a 4 outer or less ie. gutshot but reads can change this.

I had a long message typed but you've made me think on how to express it so I deleted.


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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:04 PM
(#14)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
i think that was part of the problem, i was calculating ANY possible combination, and just didnt understand how they were arriving at the number they were arriving at.

thanks for that clarification evoke

I would guess that the strat you laid out is a generalization.......of course we would have to take into account our hand, position, betting....etc etc.
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:05 PM
(#15)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
It depends on betting and how you read your opponent. It's generally a good idea to fold a 4 outer or less ie. gutshot but reads can change this.

I had a long message typed but you've made me think on how to express it so I deleted.

thanks for the help...

ya i tend to turn the norm upside down lol

as for the lingo.....gutshot? open end? and the similar terms, what exactly does that mean.
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:30 PM
(#16)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
It could probably do well to put a sticky of terms on PSO?

I'll ask for this.

----------------------------------------------------------

Gutshot is when you need one card to complete your hand. It can also apply to one particular suite of one card to complete it.

Open End is a draw hand where you have either side of the draw. ie. You hold TJ and the flop contains 9 Q. You have both sides of this draw because if a K or 8 comes you complete it. This is an open ender.


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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:36 PM
(#17)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
ah ok, thanks for that quickie lesson


ya i think that would help a lot of people out oval...good thinkin
 
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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:37 PM
(#19)
Fon1cs's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
thanks for this
 
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calculating outs - Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:56 PM
(#20)
SuperDaveOly's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 1
WhiteStar
Calculating outs is very valuable when deciding to stay on a draw and faced with decisions. After the flop you count up the number of cards left in the deck to make your hand. With two streets to go multiply outs by 4 to get the percentage of getting your card. If you don't get the card on the turn then your odds drop in half i.e. X 2 on the river. For example: you are on a flush draw, if after the flop you need one spade to come to make a flush...13(spades in the deck) - 4(spades combined between community card and your hole cards) = 9 outs. Your chance of getting a spade on the turn is 9x4=36% or about 1 in 3. On the river your chance is 9x2=18% or 1 in 5. Now lets say one of your cards in your flush draw is an A and you think that picking up an A might also make your hand best then you have 3 more outs to add to your 9. 12 x 4 = 48 almost 50/50. But wait you have a very strong drawing hand because you also have a straight draw too. When you add in those outs it turns out your the favorite. Winning at poker is about making to right decisions and having information to make those decisions is vital.
 

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