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I won this one(KK) but i feel it was a wrong play

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I won this one(KK) but i feel it was a wrong play - Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:43 PM
(#1)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
BronzeStar
How would you play this hand ? I was lucky here but felt that checking on the turn maybe got me more value on the long run or rasing all in on the flop(which was very wet)



As a bonus some orbits later i got my first profitable quads

 
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Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:24 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Hi Dan,

Preflop raise is good. No reads on the opponent???

I think when you c-bet big (pot sized) and he min-raises you, it's ok to let the hand go right there tbh. This is about as bad a flop for 2 black kings as you're going to see without an ace on the board. It's very easy for us to be trailing right now, some hands of which we're drawing to 2 outs or runner runner full house, and there are so many bad turn and river cards. Even hitting a king doesn't feel good as 1 of them makes a 4 flush and both of them make a straight for a J. I know we have no reads, but the villain did call an UTG raise from UTG+1, so this flop texture kind of smashes this general range.

Turn I would check-call if I had stuck around, betting and giving him a chance to raise us again with all his better hands I'm not sure about. If I did, it would be to deny a possible flush draw a free card, but I'd be planning to fold to another raise.


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Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:34 AM
(#3)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
BronzeStar
Hi Dave,
The villain played a standard TAG poker(forgot to mention this) and KQ was really on the bottom of his range, at least on this flop His raise on the flop gave me some doubts about ny hand but on this stage of my poker experience i guess its hard to fold pocket K that is why i had a hard time letting this hand go, in n early stage of a tourament i was inclined more to fold it.
Still have to work on folding monsters on a scary board
 
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Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:21 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by s3n_dan View Post
Still have to work on folding monsters on a scary board
Hand strength is relative. KK is a monster preflop, it's the 2nd nuts. On this flop though it's like the 100-something nuts. Not sure exactly how far down the nuts tree it has fallen but you get the idea.

Our equity against the range of hands that will be raising us on this board texture is terrible. Look at his actual holding, which is one of our absolute best case scenarios... we're only a 52-48 favorite over that. When our best case scenarios have us coin flipping and our worse case scenarios have us drawing dead to 2 outs or runner runner, with everything else in between, our over all equity is probably pretty bad and it's ok to fold.


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Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:54 AM
(#5)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
first of all i think you made the right decision to question your play and go to the forums.

yes, you won the hand and you were lucky, not to win the hand in that case but that villain had only the flush draw and was dumb enough to call the shove on river.

most of the times, villain will have a flush/straight or a combo draw with both his hole cards are live and in those cases you´re in best case 50:50 and in worst case far behind, in addition i expect villain to raise in this spot 100% of his sets too and you have no backdoor on flop.

i would bet the flop and i fold to a raise. if i get called on flop i go on with bet fold on turn. your turn call made me shook my head. you´re either drawing dead or still in bad shape. ok your equity is better against the combos now but against flush/straight you´re drawing dead.

the shove on river is simply insane. normally you isolate yourself with this shove only against better hands than yours. yes, you make yourself bluffable by checking the river but when your intention is to call it down anyway you would give villain the possibility to bluff his busted draws.

to answer your question about C/C the turn. yes C/C turn is an option, on a board half as wet as this one, when you have a strong reason to believ villain is bluffing the turn. in this case and only in this case C/C the turn would make sense. the problem is the board is as wet as possible and a call is burning money most of the time. yes, you become bluffable by folding, but trust me the board is as scary to most villains as it should be for you and there´s simply not enough bluffing on micros, especially on a full ring, to compensate your losses.

edit: forgot to mention... use the auto-rebuy to top up your stack. you lose value when playing with a stack of less than 100bb. if you´re a midstacker i apology and suggest to bank when above 60bb.

Last edited by DivorcedDuck; Mon Feb 25, 2013 at 12:32 PM..
 
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Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:12 PM
(#6)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
BronzeStar
Thank you DivorcedDuck for the feedback.

I have the autorebuy option on but only when i have less than 80bb , dont like to auto rebuy for every blind lost.

My thoughts on the spot were more instinctive and i took more time on the turn and it was like this:

- The minraise on this flop looked to me more for info, to defend his hand or drawing hands than for value , so i called not thinking very much but having in mind AQ , QQ, JJ or TT the hands that scare me.
A flush on the flop was out of question , would you minraise the nuts?
- second T on the turn actually more helped me because now it was less likely he has TT (and a Tx before the flop was out of his range=nit), i bet(wrong move) but he minraises me again ???Do you minraise with a fullhouse on the turn? Now i was more sure QQ and TT is out of his range and he is more likely drawing, i called risky (wrong move) knowing he had more outs
- A blank card on the river and i was sure like 60 % i'm ahead but the rest 40 % i put on the wierd betting lines players make on this stakes and i go all in being pot commited.

I question here more my betting line, but on the other hand if i checked the turn i could not be sure what his range was
 
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Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:27 PM
(#7)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
from what i´ve seen in this hand i´ve no reason to believe villain is a TAG. he looks weak and i can´t see any positional awareness or any kind of correct evaluation of his hand strength against a standard UTG range. he also missed to include the stack sizes into his game when it came to bet sizing. in my books villain is a fish.

how would i´ve had played the hand from the perspective of villain? - i would have tried to get all the money into the middle. villain has top pair, second nut flush draw, gut shot straight draw and he blocks a lot of AK/KK combos. his equity is a coinflip on flop against AA and his flushdraw is stronger than the most straight draws in UTG´s range. a lot of times UTG will hold something like AT+ with a worse flushdraw or a gut shot only. even against QQ villain has some nice outs. draws are overplayed so often on micros that when i have the initiative, holding a strong combodraw or the nuts i´m in. I would have raised also a set.

To answer your question about the turn, yes i raise a full house on turn 100% of the time on that board because there are so many draws out there to pay me!

i would´ve raised bigger if i were villain as my goal would be to go allin.

as i´m not villain and villain is a fish, his range is down to any ace preferably suited, suited connectors, broadways, middle or small pockets. those are the typicall hands for a fish to call preflop. against those hands and that´s what Dave(Langolier) already told you, you´re somewhere between a flip and close to drawing dead (2outs or runner runner) when raising.

something i can tell you from my experience is that when a fish starts to raise he´s either on the nuts or drawing to it and sometimes both.

to find out about his hand strength is a valid point but to bet for information is a very expensive way to do so. give villain a range, the range has to be based on experience/statistics and empiric proof. calculate how villains range hit the board and you come to the best line.

before betting ask yourself why you´re betting. betting for value, betting for pot control/free cards and betting for realizing fold equity is fine. when you don´t have enough information to give villain a proper range, play the hand the standard way and don´t start a leveling war by playing R/C. most of the time you only maximize your losses this way.

about the auto top up... use it! you will lose the blinds anyway, but you will lose it twice when being allin against a full stack.

i like your postings. it shows you have a lot to learn but to question your game is the correct way! work your way through the strategy section, visit the coachings and continue to post in the hand analyzis forum!

good luck at the felts
 

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