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how bad did i play here

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how bad did i play here - Mon Mar 04, 2013, 11:55 AM
(#1)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
dont have stats but he was yellow so 14 or down to 10 vpip
 
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Mon Mar 04, 2013, 12:17 PM
(#2)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Solid 3-bet and 2 callers.

Cooler when villain checks calls Quads. Is he flatting a 3b oop AJ?

 
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Mon Mar 04, 2013, 12:52 PM
(#3)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
yes it was a bad flop 4 me . but what i am asking is did i play it bad ? he put in 10% of his stack trying to flop a set . when he calls flop i say he has QQ or i am fuc k ed should i have check folded turn knowing he is a nit ? i mean should u just fold when ever they bet or raise? i think i am stupid to pay them off
 
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Mon Mar 04, 2013, 01:16 PM
(#4)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
I'm not in a position to say it was a bad play a HA specialist may think so or not?

But I would seriously consider folding to the check raise on the turn.

You may have heard of the >>Baluga Theorem<<.
 
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Mon Mar 04, 2013, 02:50 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hi kk,

I think you've kind of assessed it well in your follow up post, the guy is a nit and just his calls here (pre and flop) show a lot of strength.

I think I would check behind him on the turn... ask yourself what your purpose is in betting the turn? The reason to bet here should be for value, but this particular villain is unlikely to be calling a double barrel with worse hands. QQ and TT I think are folding to your turn bet, while JJ and 99 are obviously not folding.

When you check behind here, it creates some doubt in his mind about your holding... maybe you're checking because you have a big pair and don't like the 2 J's on board, or maybe you're checking because you have AK and missed. So we're more likely to get a 2nd street of value on the river this way from QQ and TT (those hands will check/call). If he makes a small river bet we can call, if he bombs the river it's an easy fold vs. a nit.

If the max value you can get from worse is 2 streets, they don't have to be the flop and turn... sometimes they could be the flop and river or turn and river.

For those that say but what about the flush draw, re-assess the villains range, what flush draw can he have? About the only legit one is AcQc and even that is doubtful for a nit cold calling a big 3b from out of position preflop.


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Mon Mar 04, 2013, 03:02 PM
(#6)
DivorcedDuck's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong263 View Post
yes it was a bad flop 4 me . but what i am asking is did i play it bad ? he put in 10% of his stack trying to flop a set . when he calls flop i say he has QQ or i am fuc k ed should i have check folded turn knowing he is a nit ? i mean should u just fold when ever they bet or raise? i think i am stupid to pay them off
why did you 3bet 4x? why did you 3bet?

why did you c-bet on flop?

why did you bet the turn?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post
You may have heard of the Baluga Theorem.
I would´ve been more impressed if you had linked to the original COW article.

it looks similar. XC,XC,XR is the classic Baluga but if you would´ve read the original article you would have recognized the difference in this spot...

Click

in the original baluga theorem hero is forced to protect his hand which is used by villain who is on two pair/set, but the theorem isn´t about heads up 3bet pots. it´s about multiway spots with multiple drawing hands on a wet board and hero holds something like TPTK. so no this isn´t a baluga spot.

here we don´t have a multiway pot on turn as the player to heros right who was mostlikely on a draw has already folded on flop. hero bets the turn but not for protection, it should be a value bet but where is the value? there are only 2 combos in villains range which may can improve to a monster. with the bet hero isolated himself. there are simply not enough worse hands to call him down. i see only QQ/TT/AcQc as hero holds the Kc. all other hands which may have called the flop beat our hero. check turn for bluff induce or let the worse hands hit at least a piece of the board.

Last edited by DivorcedDuck; Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 03:06 PM.. Reason: arrrrr- the langolier beats me by 10 minutes. :D
 
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Tue Mar 05, 2013, 12:10 PM
(#7)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
A tight player is mostly going set-mining 3-ways in this spot.
Pre-flop, KK is a monster you're happy to go all in with and forget about, but post-flop, you have to think about "range targeting". Work out which hands you are beating, and come up with a plan that extracts value from them. You want to take a line that gets value from worse, but minimises losses when you're behind. You're beating QQ, TT and lower pairs that didn't flop a boat, but will these hands keep calling if you go for 3 streets of value? Unlikely.

I don't think you can bet flop and turn and get called by worse very often. (If I was the nit, I'd probably be check-folding QQ to a double barrel, along with all underpairs that didn't hit a set). If villain has a hand like 77, he'll probably fold to a flop bet unless he puts you on AK/AQ and thinks you'll give up on the turn.

For that reason, I'd be looking to get 2 smallish streets of value when I have the best hand. I'd usually check the flop, in the hope that a nit with an underpair will check-call turn and river after you've checked the flop, as your line would look more like AK that missed.
By barrelling, in order to set up a river shove, you're value-owning yourself against a range that crushes you.

I assume you just couldn't find a fold to the turn check-raise because you'd invested so much and the pot laid "good odds", but villain is almost never getting it in here with less than a boat. Even trips have you crushed. You have some showdown value (you're beating most pocket pairs), and checking behind on the turn allows you to collect it. If villain donks the river, you can get out of the way for minimum losses, but he'll sometimes look you up with worse if you checked one street.
 

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