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10NL Zoom 6max, strong draw OOP against aggro opp

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10NL Zoom 6max, strong draw OOP against aggro opp - Mon Mar 04, 2013, 02:42 PM
(#1)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Hi,

How would you play this hand against a weaker aggro opponent who just loves to bet big in position with a wide range of hands ranging from any Ax+ ?? Should we call and try to hit our hand?? The problem i see here is that the immediate odds are not in our favour. Assuming both spades and straight draws will give us the best hand we have 34% equity but to make the call immediately profitable we would need 43%. Also if we hit it is very difficult to say if there are any implied odds at all so do we try to raise OTF, maybe OTT or do we just fold here?



Cheers

Tommy
 
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Mon Mar 04, 2013, 03:47 PM
(#2)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
If you are going to stick with your read that villain is raising preflop and c-betting a wide range you could consider check-raising the flop. A lot of hands won't like that flop and villain might just flat that raise with Ax. If you were to take that line you could double barrel when you improve on turn or maybe check if you don't. Since you did gain 4 outs on turn it would probably be best to double barrel and maybe fold out his Ax. Hit the river you have a nice pot to value bet into, if you miss you will have to consider going 3-barrel bluff or fold. 3-barrel bluff is usually a bad idea though in my opinion, unless you know your up against a decent thinking player (who can make big folds, like AQo).

That is my take on the hand. I don't think playing it that way is great... but calling gets us in tough spots when villain is betting so big. If you check-raise flop and get re-raised all-in, not too sure about what to do. I guess plugging in the numbers into odds calculator and estimating villain's hand range could help answer that.
 
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Mon Mar 04, 2013, 05:13 PM
(#3)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
I think we have played the hand really well up to this point.

I think our best decision at this point on the turn, facing a double barrel, is to check-raise all in.

If you expect your opponent to be betting at this board with a wide variety of holdings, including weak AX on the turn, then we can put a lot of pressure on him. He can choose to fold a lot of his turn betting range, which is a huge coup for us. If not, we have a maximum number of outs.

The alternative is to check and call the turn with the plan of either leading when we hit or check-raising all-in.

There are some problems with this. First is that we don't have a good plan for when we don't hit, basically surrendering the pot. This means that on occasion we will lose to something like QJ on the river or a pair that we could have folded out. We also aren't guaranteed to get paid because getting there, especially with spades, will be quite obvious and our opponent will often make better decisions than us in position on the river.

I'll stop there for now, hopefully this makes sense.

Main point is we are out of position (disadvantage) and have real equity. We think we have fold equity as well and we can get rid of the oop disadvantage as well by check-raising all-in.
 
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Mon Mar 04, 2013, 08:09 PM
(#4)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi guys

I think I would x/r the flop to around $3 and then shove most turns to get hands like A9 to fold? I think this line leverages us the most fold equity as it looks super strong whereas he'll feel 'priced in to call' when he's put another bet in so may call AI with a wider range.

What do you think Gareth?


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Last edited by Croyd93; Mon Mar 04, 2013 at 08:11 PM..
 
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Tue Mar 05, 2013, 12:23 AM
(#5)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
Hi guys

I think I would x/r the flop to around $3 and then shove most turns to get hands like A9 to fold? I think this line leverages us the most fold equity as it looks super strong whereas he'll feel 'priced in to call' when he's put another bet in so may call AI with a wider range.

What do you think Gareth?
I don't think you are maximizing leverage if your opponent feels 'priced in to call'. Also, we definitely don't want to induce calls if we are semi-bluffing.

and yeah I do realize my name isn't Gareth.
Do hope he replies to your question. This is an interesting spot.
 
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Tue Mar 05, 2013, 05:12 AM
(#6)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
I meant that he'll feel priced in if we x/r the turn AI (after x/c the flop) as he's put another bet in and players just can't give up on pots when they've invested a few bets. However I think by x/r the flop and shoving the turn we maximise our fold equity and potentially get some of his stronger hands to fold that would otherwise call a turn shove.

I'll be interested to see what everyone thinks not just Gareth?


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Tue Mar 05, 2013, 09:21 AM
(#7)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
I think that we have a better chance of folding A9 with a turn check-raise all-in here than with a flop check-raise and turn shove. Villain will more easily be able to put us on the type of hand we have with flop check-raise turn shove, particularly if we make the flop check-raise large.

We're folding out air with that line mostly. I think the range that continues against the flop check-raise is stronger than the range that this villain bets on the turn. If that's true, then we have more fold equity with the turn check-raise.
 
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Tue Mar 05, 2013, 02:44 PM
(#8)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
I think that we have a better chance of folding A9 with a turn check-raise all-in here than with a flop check-raise and turn shove. Villain will more easily be able to put us on the type of hand we have with flop check-raise turn shove, particularly if we make the flop check-raise large.

We're folding out air with that line mostly. I think the range that continues against the flop check-raise is stronger than the range that this villain bets on the turn. If that's true, then we have more fold equity with the turn check-raise.
Your reasoning makes perfect sense, paritcularly the last bit about having more fold equity against his turn betting range. Sorry if I'm flogging the dead horse here Gareth but I have one more question...

I figure we're not planning to x/shove every turn card, so for example what do we do if the turn comes a 2d? Against a bet size similar to what he made we aren't getting the correct odds to call and as you say he's unlikely to pay us off when spades hit so would we have to x/f?


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Tue Mar 05, 2013, 03:52 PM
(#9)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Why not check-shove the 2d turn?
 
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Wed Mar 06, 2013, 09:58 AM
(#10)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Why not check-shove the 2d turn?
Well I thought since it didn't increase our fold equity it wasn't a good card to shove, but then I suppose the villain is likely to bet a wider range for value ott when a blank hits. Stuff like A8 may be more willing to bet a blank turn hence increasing our fold equity as they can't continue against a turn check/shove. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I got there in the end?


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