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2nl JJ shoved on at turn with one overcard.

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2nl JJ shoved on at turn with one overcard. - Thu Mar 07, 2013, 04:31 AM
(#1)
itsandrew1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 19


Villain had been opening a few pots at 3x. They would also sometimes limp with others if they limped first. Opened this one at 4x. I took 4x to mean a stronger hand than normal. So broadway cards, AX suited, pocket pairs, suited connectors.

Should I have 3bet preflop OOP?

Flop comes 1 overcard, spade draw, gutshot. Was it fine to check raise flop? I thought their bet looked weak.

Their min 3bet confused me. If they had something or wanted to bluff shouldn't they have shoved? Facing a min 3bet should I have 4bet shoved instead of calling? I don't think folding to a min 3bet made sense.

Then the turn ...

How do you think I could have better played this hand.

Andrew
 
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Thu Mar 07, 2013, 07:10 AM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Hi Andrew,

If a player is varying his bet sizes, it's usually because of hand strength. At these stakes, many players will limp speculative hands like small pairs and low suited connectors, but will make larger than usual opens with monsters. Without knowing villain's stats, I'd put him on a narrower range pre-flop (especially since this is full ring and villain is in MP), consisting of big aces, KQ and pairs higher than 88.
Against a range like that, you probably don't want to 3-bet, as the worst hands will fold, so you only win 9c, while the top of the range will usually 4-bet, putting you in a bad spot.
So, basically, you're going set-mining here, although flopping an overpair will be good sometimes. The plan should be to see a flop, and probably peel one off if it's not too scary.

On the flop, you check to the raiser which is standard, and he bets just less than half pot. His bet does look weak, but some players bet small with monsters looking for action. I'd prefer a call here, for the same reason I like a call pre-flop. By raising, you fold out all the hands you beat, and only get action from hands that have you in bad shape.
If you just check-call, you keep the pot-size under control and can gain some more information on the turn. If villain is truly weak, then your call on the flop will worry him. Hands like 99 and AQ will be scared you have a king, so will probably check behind on the turn if they don't improve, meaning you can make a valuebet on safe river cards.

As played, you make a check-raise. This is a huge sign of strength. You're representing a set. Do you expect him to call with worse? If not, you've effectively turned your hand into a bluff, hoping to fold out better hands than JJ. There's no need to get fancy like this at 2NL. Just play straightforwardly.

Villain, whio is relatively short-stacked, 3-bets. Since he only has 63c behind, he is now committed to stacking off. If you really think you have the best hand, then shoving for value would be the right move.
But I don't see you having the best hand very often. Villain might play a flush draw like this, but I think made hands with AA, Kx, and TT are more likely holdings. JJ is not good enough often enough, and will also have to dodge multiple cards on turn and river if villain has a hand like AsQs to survive. I'd fold to the 3-bet.

As a further note, once he's 3-bet the flop, he is almost guaranteed to shove the rest in on any turn card. Since you're not going to call there unless you hit your 2-outer, it's best to fold before you even see the turn.


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Thu Mar 07, 2013, 09:55 AM
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itsandrew1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 19
Thanks Arty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Hi Andrew,

The plan should be to see a flop, and probably peel one off if it's not too scary.
This is how I play smaller pairs. So is JJ not much better than 88/99 in this regards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
If you just check-call, you keep the pot-size under control and can gain some more information on the turn. If villain is truly weak, then your call on the flop will worry him. Hands like 99 and AQ will be scared you have a king, so will probably check behind on the turn if they don't improve, meaning you can make a valuebet on safe river cards.
Makes sense. This is something that I'm trying to figure out atm. Are there any other comments re pot control that I might find helpful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
There's no need to get fancy like this at 2NL. Just play straightforwardly.
Good advice! I find I worry about getting out drawn, or having a wasted opportunity, so I find I do this kind of thing to try and win the pot early rather than wait it out on later streets. Not saying it;s right it's just a bit of a habit I have when I get nervous about a hand.

Thanks for your analysis.

Andrew
 
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Thu Mar 07, 2013, 11:19 AM
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mimesis.is's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
If a player is varying his bet sizes, it's usually because of hand strength.
Just putting this one out there, but players at 2NL seem to love opening for 8c with AK instead of the usual 6c. No idea why, but I'll be damned if it's not something I see time and time again at the tables.

Not saying you can or should assume that they have that specific hand but definitely consider it a significant part of their range.
 
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Thu Mar 07, 2013, 11:23 AM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsandrew1 View Post
This is how I play smaller pairs. So is JJ not much better than 88/99 in this regards?
In normal circumstances, JJ is a very strong hand that can be open-raised (and 3-bet sometimes), but when you suspect you're up against a super strong range (e.g. when a loose passive or an ubernit suddenly makes a big raise), you shouldn't expect to have the best hand so often, so set-mining is your best option. When I think a villain has a hand like QQ+ and AK, I basically treat JJ as if it were a medium pair, because if you end up playing a big pot without flopping a set, you're usually getting value-owned by a bigger pair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsandrew1 View Post
Makes sense. This is something that I'm trying to figure out atm. Are there any other comments re pot control that I might find helpful?
One thing I like to think about is "showdown value". When you have a hand like 2nd pair and the board is fairly dry, you'd like to get to showdown. Sometimes by just calling on the flop, villain will slow down and check the turn and/or river. This means you get to show down your hand cheaply, and sometimes win. Even a hand like AK making TPTK can often only get 2 streets of value (except when you're playing against a calling station), because if you try and bet 3 streets, you'll often find villain has you beat. In short, with a marginal hand (and one pair is marginal) you shouldn't be putting a lot of money in the pot: "Big hand, big pot. Small hand, small pot".

QUOTE=itsandrew1;398914Good advice! I find I worry about getting out drawn, or having a wasted opportunity, so I find I do this kind of thing to try and win the pot early rather than wait it out on later streets. Not saying it;s right it's just a bit of a habit I have when I get nervous about a hand.[/QUOTE]
I know the feeling, but the real value in microstakes comes from having the best hand at showdown, because the size of the pot keeps growing on each street. The pot is sometimes so small on the flop that it's hardly worth fighting for!
When you have a big hand, you want to get called by worse, including draws. Since most draws won't get there by the river, you make a ton of money by betting when you think your'e ahead, and folding when you don't. This includes making disciplined folds when a villain raises you on any street. Unless you're really sure you have the best hand, just fold. Don't try and force another player to fold, and don't be a payoff wizard when he raises.

I hope this helps. Feel free to post more hands you had problems with. Good luck!


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Thu Mar 07, 2013, 11:30 AM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimesis.is View Post
Just putting this one out there, but players at 2NL seem to love opening for 8c with AK instead of the usual 6c. No idea why, but I'll be damned if it's not something I see time and time again at the tables.
Not saying you can or should assume that they have that specific hand but definitely consider it a significant part of their range.
I see that too. I think it's because they don't really want to get called by weak hands that actually have decent equity. (Some also make larger bets with JJ, hoping for folds, but smaller bets with AA, hoping for action.)
But be careful. Each player is different. Some will make larger raises with monsters and limp with junk. Others are the opposite. Some use the same bet size in every seat in every situation. Taking notes on what the raise sizes mean can give you a profitable edge. Using hand histories to check what hands were shown down and what opening bet size was used can give you good clues on future behaviour by a player, as many players are habitual and will always do the same thing. (e.g. limp aces under the gun, but open 5bb with jacks).


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