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10NL 6 Max KK Deepstack

10NL 6 Max KK Deepstack - Thu Mar 07, 2013, 10:29 PM
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
V2: 20/14, AF:1.7 after 210 hands. 3B:2.6%(76), Sqz: 0% prior this hand

I had considered flatting the squeeze to keep V6 in the pot. But I didn't want to play OOP and miss value from V2. Chose to 4bet to a reasonable 35bb. Hoped to get it all in.

Things go as planned. V2 raises to 93bb indicating huge strength. At this point, I was just praying that he has everything else than AA. I don't like flatting as we'll still be getting all in OTF most of the time. With an Ace on board, it makes us doubt our hand.

Folding might be an option due to his tight 3bet stats. If so, I shouldn't have "4-bet bluff" in the first place. Again, laying down KK after putting in $3.50 feels nitty. Afterall, he wasn't playing 10/8 or 11/10.

Thoughts about getting it all in with KK deepstack? What should I have done differently?
Fri Mar 08, 2013, 10:56 AM
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)

Getting it all in preflop 200bb's effective with KK is imo opponent and situationally dependent.

In this case I do not think it is profitable. The villain plays somewhat TAG stats preflop on the sample you have, but he has a bit of a passive tendency as well (in his AF, which is a post flop number but can indicate a leaning in his style, particularly when someone else is showing aggression), and his 3B% thus far indicates a pure value range that is pretty tight... 2.6% pokerstove will default as AKs, TT+, but if we throw in AKo and make it QQ+ that's also 2.6%. In reality he's probably not always 3-betting AK and is sometimes 3-betting JJ.

Here he is 3-betting a UTG open (who he may already read as a TAG) and UTG+1 flat from an unknown. Given the opponent as described, when you 4-bet here his 5-bet range is probably only AA tbh.

Folding might be an option due to his tight 3bet stats. If so, I shouldn't have "4-bet bluff" in the first place. Again, laying down KK after putting in $3.50 feels nitty. After all, he wasn't playing 10/8 or 11/10.
He wasn't playing 10/8 but we are way beyond a vpip and pfr, we're at 5-bets playing 200bb deep, from a guy who from all indications I can see above, won't be 5-betting with QQ or AK, and the depth of money makes him MORE likely to not 5-bet those hands imo against the strength you've shown.

I agree on not liking to 4b/fold KK, but since you took the action I think it would actually be ok here. I would note this is not necessarily turning our KK into a bluff... to be clear:

-If we think the opponent will call our 4b with the worse parts of his 3-betting range, i.e. AK, QQ, JJ... then we really aren't turning KK into a bluff but are 4-betting for value against all the hands we're ahead of. IF I had this read, I'd prefer to 4b/fold... extra value against all worse hands and we get away cheaply from AA.

-If we think he will fold AK/QQ/JJ to our 4b then that is the case where we are turning KK into a bluff (worse doesn't call, we only get action from better). This is terrible so if we think this is the read then we shouldn't 4b, but rather flat and keep the worse hands in.

And to complete the cycle of thought on this spot:

-If we think the villain will stack in worse hands even this deep, then 4b/get it in is fine. This particular villain I think no way, but for example a maniac would 3b much wider and 5b/get it in with a lot of worse hands as well so against some opponent types 4b/get it in is great.

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Fri Mar 08, 2013, 07:48 PM
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
Gosh Dave!! Somehow I feel enlightened after reading your post. Haven't had much experience playing deepstack. I like the point about 4-bet bluffing vs 4-bet for value. Yes I feel that this is a case of 4-betting for value. He's really tight with 3bets and like you said, probably flat with AK and QQ, only 5bet with better.

He did hold AA. Gotta learn to fold KK! Thanks!!

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