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25NL FR Zoom: Line check on flopped house

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25NL FR Zoom: Line check on flopped house - Thu Mar 14, 2013, 06:29 PM
(#1)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
25 NL FR Zoom. V4 an V7 are both ABC regs. I assumed I was behind preflop, but that this was a good spot to set mine being last to act and with the caller. The flop was great, especially since it offered flush and straight draws, plus AJs could be in both their ranges. I decided to check but was unsure if check-calling or check-raising was the optimal line.

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...504_118A8F32AE

V4 followed up with a solid c-bet which looked most like an overpair to me. V7 flatting with me still left to act seemed very strong too, but most likely a draw.

I considered just calling the bet in hopes of getting more action on the turn. But, I assumed both have stats on me and know that I play draws aggressively. Plus, I didn't want AJ or an overpair to get lucky. And, if someone was chasing, I thought it more likely that they would continue now rather than on the turn if it didn't complete their draw. I decided that raising was my best chance of getting more value in this spot. Both folded to my raise though.

What are your thoughts on my line? Am I overlooking anything here?

Thanks!

Roland GTX
 
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Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:14 PM
(#2)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
...I didn't want AJ or an overpair to get lucky.
AJ is probably never folding flop or turn so no reason to worry about them getting lucky and boating up. You can't prevent it. Overpairs have 2 outs. I would just focus on getting value from those hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
And, if someone was chasing, I thought it more likely that they would continue now rather than on the turn if it didn't complete their draw...
I don't think too many ABC regs are going to put their stack in on a strong-draw semi-bluff when the board is paired in a 3-way pot and your telling them you like that flop (poor implied odds). They should be even less likely to flat your check-raise if that is the case. I think your better off check-calling flop and giving someone a chance to hit a flush/straight. They still might get away even then, but it will be a much tougher fold.

You are not really missing out on too much value on the flop I don't think. They already did the betting for you. Personally I would plan on making my move on the turn. Either a decent sized donk bet or a check-raise. Q-A not the best turn cards maybe check/call if they hit and one of the villains shows full strength.

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 11:17 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:19 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
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Hi Greg,

Preflop call is good for sure.

I think the problem with your line is the bet sizing. Your check-raise is really big, it basically screams monster to me. I don't mind raising but you're making it really hard to continue for ABC TAG villains. Overpairs basically are being put to a commitment decision. Draws are being priced out. These are villains who think about such things, and who aren't prone to making big mistakes or stacking off 1 pair on a scary board. You don't want to price out a draw should they have one, you want them to feel priced in to continue when you have a full house. I would favor a much smaller raise here, like 3.75-4.00.

You also made a comment that you didn't want AJ to get lucky. I don't think you should be considering AJ at all tbh, I can't imagine that particular holding folding no matter what you do, c/r small, c/r big, c/c... AJ is in this hand for the long haul imo. If you c/r small AJ will probably come back over the top here and you'll get all in right on the flop (a great result as your a good fav over Jx).


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Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:01 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
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@Rocker, I don't mind c/c, bet line but I think a small check-raise is better as there are a lot of potential scary cards to kill action on the turn from non-J hands.


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Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:15 AM
(#5)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Thanks!

Dave you said my raise was really big. I get your point. However, the original c-bet was quite big 179 into 225. This looked like a strong hand. I followed up with what I thought looked like a standard raise of 3x plus 1x for the caller.

My experience on Zoom is that a click back or very small raise post flop is almost always a huge hand, especially coming from a reg. I hoped that by keeping my sizing standard, that it would conceal the strength of my hand.

I understand that I wasn't offering good odds to a chaser, but I gave more weight to the small raise being a tell.

Do you feel I should make the smaller raise and just hope they feel compelled to continue?

The AJ point was great. I hadn't considered it that way.

Thanks again

Greg
 
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Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:21 AM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
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Yes, I very much favor a small raise over what you did (which btw is not really standard, I think you're applying "standard" 3-betting suggestions to your raise here). If you feel regs are interpreting this as a monster then it would be a nice line to run an occasional bluff against them with.

The click back is a fish tell of a big hand, I see regs at 25NL using small raises with a variety of holdings (although I'm not in the zoom player pool but assume it's not much different).

Edit: another thought, if they do suspect this is a big hand they are going to think it's trip jacks, which if you've given what looks like a great price to call on a draw (even though we know it's not since we're already full) they will think "if I catch my (flush/straight) on the turn I'm going to get this guys stack" and that will compel them to call. You also noted they should know you play draws aggressively, so even if suspicious it's strong they will find it hard to release overpairs for a single smallish raise, and end up doing a lot of "I'll call and reevaluate the turn" business.


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 11:26 AM..
 
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Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:46 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
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Dave is so good at finding that extra value.

Nice explanation on why it is more +EV to raise small rather than check/call or check/raise big.
 
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Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:32 PM
(#8)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
Dave is so good at finding that extra value.

Nice explanation on why it is more +EV to raise small rather than check/call or check/raise big.
+1

Thanks for your thoughts too RockerguyAA! I learn something new every time I post a hand.

Roland GTX
 
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Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:32 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
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Posts: 13,499
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Thanks guys. Good hand for discussion Greg!


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