Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

10NL 6-max zoom. Open K9s and call a 3b oop. So bad I can bluff?

Old
Default
10NL 6-max zoom. Open K9s and call a 3b oop. So bad I can bluff? - Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:24 AM
(#1)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi,

I'm putting myself out here as a maniac. Though there is method in my madness.

Question is how should you play a set oop? Lead/donk, x/c or x/r?

I don't have a set and it's all I can do but bluff the villain. Maybe I have a draw, protecting an over pair, or betting a set which has no value in folding out worse.

At 10NL I am not leading a set. Just hoping the villain thinks I don't understand the x/c or x/r line or who maybe believes my turn bet.

The turn is a blank to the villain but now I have a value bet to say what was the 3b pre all about? So inspired maniac or delusional self belief.


I can't really explain the level of thought against an unknown. But with a legitimate hand I did raise and call a 3b opp and bluff once. On the turn my hand improved to bet and got a fold.

>>If I x/r the flop the same bluff may work<<

So what did the villain 3b with to fold to a turn bet?


Just fun 3b ranging and why call my flop lead and fold turn?

Need to stop now.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 01:31 AM..
 
Old
Default
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:15 AM
(#2)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Forrest, I kinda liked it! ... so long as you had stats that the villain 3-bets wide?

 
Old
Default
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:46 PM
(#3)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey Forrest

I think you're making some mistakes in this hand.

Let's take a look at something before you even get dealt cards. Why are you only playing a 75bb ish stack? I think you should be topping up and playing a consistent stack size like 100x.

Getting onto the hand, if you don't know what hand villain is folding on the turn, that's a bit of a clue that your bluff is bad. Can you think of a hand that three-bets preflop, call the flop, and folds the turn? I can, but you really should know what kind of range you are trying to bluff out.

Also, I would not have ever called the three-bet in this situation.

Think of all the hands you raise from this spot. If you are calling with a hand as weak as K9s, what hand are you raising and then folding to the three-bet? Basically none. That is not going to be a good idea, to defend your entire range to open. You have a lot of stronger hands in this spot that you can continue with, you can let the weakest ones, like K9s go.
 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:06 PM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oh, here's the other 'outside the box' hand that was similar to something we saw in Live Training (Dealing with 3-Bets, Dec. 12, 2012, @16:14)

So Forrest, you had the Kx blocker, and a gapper.

I guess we also need to make sure that the 3-bettor's a bit maniacal? And has a fold button?

And we're supposed to 4-bet, not call?


After seeing your hand, I tried out one of my own - *hope* I got all the criteria covered, that I missed with your hand

Villain was a 4-tabler, with a 17% 3-bet. And there was humongous timing tell before he made the reraise, like he was checking out the number of tables I was playing before deciding to raise me ... like I was expecting it before it came? But I didn't use the time wisely to check out my pop-up to make sure his high 3-bet stats were coming from the button and not the blinds, the way most peoples' are - so I guess that's something else I'll have to remember to do next time. And I don't think I looked too carefully at his post-flop stats either :/ Will have to try and be more careful the next time! Might have just gotten lucky, who knows!!

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hand...503_952A1DC840
 
Old
Default
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 02:57 PM
(#5)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi Sam,

I like your 4-bet here as in my hand calling a 3-bet oop was bad as Gareth pointed out. Then bluffing my way out of trouble representing a weak play with a donk and follow up on the turn.

You had nice reads to make the decision and I even think a smaller bet would have got the job done too. So $1.95 or $2.05? At the shops we aren't paying the extra 10c are we.

Well played 4-bet I thought. Also bluffing against a thinking player is better than doing risky stuff at the low micros as villains there are sometimes too sticky.
 
Old
Default
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:28 PM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post
Hi Sam,

I like your 4-bet here as in my hand calling a 3-bet oop was bad as Gareth pointed out. Then bluffing my way out of trouble representing a weak play with a donk and follow up on the turn.

You had nice reads to make the decision and I even think a smaller bet would have got the job done too. So $1.95 or $2.05? At the shops we aren't paying the extra 10c are we.

Well played 4-bet I thought. Also bluffing against a thinking player is better than doing risky stuff at the low micros as villains there are sometimes too sticky.

Still too high, eh?

Okay, thanks Forrest!! And thanks for taking the time to give those of us who missed the 4-betting class a summary and demonstration of the concept of risking as little as we think we can get away with. Because you know what, for some reason only half of that class got recorded, and part of what got cut off was the part on 3-betting smaller. So I'm not surprised my implementation is off


My post-flop probably would have been the same as yours if my hand didn't connect, so maybe it wasn't so bad

As for doing risky stuff at the micros - maybe stuff just kind of turns out that way accidentally? Like the raising and reraising at the tables can so crazy, it can't possibly all be for value. And then there's that dilemma of what to do about it - like unless we've seen something about how to best proceed, we kind of have no choice but to give stuff a try and experiment?


Here's a situation that kept coming up for me - there's this reg in the 5nl pool with a 95% steal percent from the button, and like an 89% fold to 3-bet. :



So I started 3-betting him every time he tried to steal my blinds, with about the same range - any two :




And then recently I was catching up on Live Training videos from the library, and it turns out Espada in 'Preflop Aggression' (Dec. 20, 2012, @30:45) asked if it's okay when people are stealing with a 100% range to 3-bet them back with any two. And Gareth said we should at least try to have a hand that's suited. Now that he mentions it, yeah that makes a lot of sense


Guess another alternative would be to just fold, and wait until we're in the button and they're in the blinds, to 'get our money back'?

That's what I wish I'd done here instead of donking out (because he had a high fold to cbet, and a low fold to 3-bet):





Awkward!!


Anyways ... we all face the same people in the pool, so we must all have these same dilemmas of how to best maximize our profits and minimize our losses against the more extreme players with the looser ranges?


One of my Time Vault goals was to try and learn to play a more fundamentally solid game, so I've been keeping my eyes out for little improvements to make like trying to be more selective about the wide range we choose to resteal with, even if it's just making sure our cards are suited. And making sure we're not missing any of the criteria on our lists and stuff, etc?

Ahhh ... I'm starting to ramble. Guess that's enough for today - night everybody!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Mar 23, 2013 at 10:46 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 11:08 PM
(#7)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Flatting KTo OOP is awkward in my opinion. If you are going to play it it i'd come in with a raise. It doesn't play that well post flop (often dominated), so taking the pot down with a 3b is what i'd do if i wanted to play it.

And regarding the donk bet, what are you trying to represent? You can only get called by hands which have you beat (even a float with A high is ahead).

Also, seeing what hand he had he'd probably just fold it pre. Your just lucky he played it horribly lol
 
Old
Default
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 11:27 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
You must have glossed over the villain's HUD stats - and my highlight of the villain's HUD stats

Because he actually had a 75% steal percent on average (over the cut-off to sb), and only a 50% fold to 3-bet.

So a 3-bet wasn't likely to be met with a fold. And KTo is actually more likely to be dominating hands in his range, than the other way around. So the 3-bet would have been for value, which wasn't something I felt was optimal.

As for what hand I was trying to represent, it'd be like JJ or TT, given that I have a reasonable fold to steal %. I didn't know he had blockers, obviously. And he had the open-ender.


Something to note though is that this hand is over 3 months old - I brought it up to point out that a lot of us might be playing more recklessly than we had intended, because we're not sure how to better go about things? I thought my double-barrel was terrible, since the turn card didn't change anything, and he had that 100% fold to c-bet which meant he likely had some sort of a hand or draw he felt was good enough to float with, given his 100% float. I think that's something I saw you do with your 22 triple-barrel birdday - c-bet a turn card that wasn't likely to garner a fold.

If I were going to change anything about the hand, I'd (1) check-fold the flop, and assuming I didn't do that, I'd (2) check-fold the turn to a bet. And then (3) I'd wait for position.

Thanks for the feedback.

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Mar 23, 2013 at 11:33 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:06 AM
(#9)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
You must have glossed over the villain's HUD stats - and my highlight of the villain's HUD stats

Because he actually had a 75% steal percent on average (over the cut-off to sb), and only a 50% fold to 3-bet.

So a 3-bet wasn't likely to be met with a fold. And KTo is actually more likely to be dominating hands in his range, than the other way around. So the 3-bet would have been for value, which wasn't something I felt was optimal.

As for what hand I was trying to represent, it'd be like JJ or TT, given that I have a reasonable fold to steal %. I didn't know he had blockers, obviously. And he had the open-ender.


Something to note though is that this hand is over 3 months old - I brought it up to point out that a lot of us might be playing more recklessly than we had intended, because we're not sure how to better go about things? I thought my double-barrel was terrible, since the turn card didn't change anything, and he had that 100% fold to c-bet which meant he likely had some sort of a hand or draw he felt was good enough to float with, given his 100% float. I think that's something I saw you do with your 22 triple-barrel birdday - c-bet a turn card that wasn't likely to garner a fold.

If I were going to change anything about the hand, I'd (1) check-fold the flop, and assuming I didn't do that, I'd (2) check-fold the turn to a bet. And then (3) I'd wait for position.

Thanks for the feedback.
haha didn't see the hud stats. Makes a bit more sense now.

I would have thought you'd have 3bet TT or JJ for value, but if you did flat, check calling or check raising is probably better like you said. Like you said check-fold is better next time.

Some good points in your post.

Also, regarding the 22 hand I played, i'd play the same way if I was extracting value (blank turn), but i'll wait for a hand analyzer to comment.

Good luck at the tables (not against me though :P )
 
Old
Default
Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:29 AM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
haha didn't see the hud stats. Makes a bit more sense now.

I would have thought you'd have 3bet TT or JJ for value, but if you did flat, check calling or check raising is probably better like you said. Like you said check-fold is better next time.

Some good points in your post.

Also, regarding the 22 hand I played, i'd play the same way if I was extracting value (blank turn), but i'll wait for a hand analyzer to comment.

Good luck at the tables (not against me though :P )
Hey birdayy

Thanks

You make some great points too - I'm studying a bunch of stuff right now, like hand ranging and 3-bets. And something else I had my eye on was trying to avoid making bluffs that aren't totally believable - I actually would have 3-bet TT or JJ pre-flop against somebody so loose who doesn't fold a lot to 3-bets. And if I hadn't, I'd have definitely check-called the flop knowing the villain c-bets 100% of the time, so maybe that's why the villain called both streets - because stuff wasn't adding up. You got me

Maybe I could have had a hand like 9Ts, but really my bets were based more on the fact that people will only connect with the flop 33% of the time, and that when the villain doesn't connect well he tends to fold (and also since his range is so wide, it's more likely he didn't connect well). But the higher up we go, the better our game has to be, so I guess that's why I'm starting to worry about stuff like this - sticking more to value, and not bluffing unless I've equity on the pot, or unless it's for sure believable, and stuff? LOTS to work on!!

haha - this discussion's been fun! Have a nice day everybody!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 08:57 AM..
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com