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10NL 6-max zoom. Raise 44 utg, +1 min 3bet, call and I x/r 955r flop?

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10NL 6-max zoom. Raise 44 utg, +1 min 3bet, call and I x/r 955r flop? - Thu Mar 21, 2013, 01:38 AM
(#1)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi,

No reads I raise 44 utg, just why +1 min re-raise? Ok so equal stacks I call to see a flop.

With 955r board I x/r does the villain actually have a 9 or 5?

Is this a bluff? I can't be folding out better, or for value worse may call? >>Totally confused at the moment<<.


Last edited by ForrestFive; Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 01:41 AM..
 
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Thu Mar 21, 2013, 07:19 AM
(#2)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey FF

I am confused too .

Why are you worried if the villain has a 5 or a 9? I would be much more worried about them having a better pocket pair than yours, specifically TT, JJ, QQ, KK, and AA.

Some people choose this three-bet size for unknown reasons. Sometimes its a hand they want to play and to have the initiative, but don't really know how to better go about it. This means their range could be wide, all sorts of hands. Sometimes they play this as a trap with a strong range, TT+ AQ+ or a very strong range QQ+ AK. Either way, calling preflop is definitely your best option. You are getting too good of a price to fold and four-betting is a likely disaster.

On this flop I don't mind your play if you are trying to take it away. You are certainly bluffing in the sense that you don't expect to ever show down the best hand after making this play, you are looking to get folds. It doesn't really matter than you have a better hand right now than AK -- AK has position, the initiative, and good equity, with lots of streets to go. I'd rather have AK than 44 on this board. But it looks like you took it away successfully from some overcards. Not a play I'd make often.

 
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Thu Mar 21, 2013, 10:35 PM
(#3)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi Gareth,

I can't say "I was betting for information or to find out where I am". No that's worse than not having auto top up set - like it's a criminal offence.


Saying what better hand will fold (bluff) or worse will call (value) is ok. All I see is better than 44+ so 55 is happy on that board or any bigger pair. And worse to call 33 or 22 no.

Not quite at the level to understand AK vs small pocket pairs is ok on that board.

Anyway now I just love to x/r bluff >>low pairs<<. Not a play to make often?
 
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Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:45 PM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Forrest, you know what ... sometimes you're LAGgier moves don't look all that different from the stuff we see in live training! Like maybe you're moves (which I've been saying look good to me ), aren't all bad, they just need some adjustments to make them more EV?

Here's a somewhat similar spot from Live Training, where Gareth made a reraise on a paired board (Preflop Aggression, Dec. 20, 2012, @45:14)




Something similar with your hand, is that the villain might have been a less experienced player as well, since he wasn't playing with a full stack? And his post-flop raise was the same size as his pre-flop one.

A difference is that you were out of position, rather than in position.

And - this is the part I found really interesting - is that the 8s 7s had 2 backdoor draws, and if the villain made that tiny cbet and called the reraise with a hand like AK, then the 8 and 7 had outs as well. Like there were equity considerations, as well as a plan for what turn cards to double-barrel?


I really like the idea of making sure we win with the best hand, but maybe there's stuff we can do too to minimize the risks for those times when the villain decides to call the reraise, and we wind up having to continue on the turn?

 
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Sat Mar 23, 2013, 02:22 PM
(#5)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi Sam,

Yes when in position I raise the villain's c-bet and oop check/raise. Rarely am I doing this as a bluff though normally for value.

Gareth's hand does have back doors with straightening flush cards and I'm doing it on paired boards. With 44 on 955r and in the 2nd example 22 on 997r flops. So I could fill up to avoid total disaster.

Nice point you made about minimizing risks. Here if I was using tracker software a villain with a high c-bet % would be a better target to bluff. Greater caution needed if it appears they only c-bet when connecting with the flop.
 
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Sat Mar 23, 2013, 02:42 PM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post
Hi Sam,

Yes when in position I raise the villain's c-bet and oop check/raise. Rarely am I doing this as a bluff though normally for value.

Gareth's hand does have back doors with straightening flush cards and I'm doing it on paired boards. With 44 on 955r and in the 2nd example 22 on 997r flops. So I could fill up to avoid total disaster.

Nice point you made about minimizing risks. Here if I was using tracker software a villain with a high c-bet % would be a better target to bluff. Greater caution needed if it appears they only c-bet when connecting with the flop.

Oh - that's a great point Forrest! I guess even without tracking software, there's always those other cues we can rely on too, like the second hand where you were in the bb, vs the button, and the villain made that small c-bet?

I've got a lil addiction to playing middling to low pocket pairs out of position against 3-bettors myself - am trying to kick it though, because once people have invested a lot of chips in the pot, they don't always like to let go so easily ... at least in the blinds - yikes :/


Are you going to class tomorrow? Will see you there if so!!
 

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