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should be rich at this point

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should be rich at this point - Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:34 PM
(#1)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
BronzeStar
this is a recent phenomenon that i've been witnessing--i consistently price out my opps. from hitting their draws, yet they call anyway and hit way more often than they should. my opps. DON'T price me out, yet i call and miss. this is seriously costing me money. futhermore, these donkeys play the game in a certain way that enables them to win money. they unknowingly do something that i pick up on, and then when i attack that weakness, they simply show me a monster hand that doesn't make any sense for them to have. it's all for s**ts and giggles with them. it's pretty clear they don't have a clue, but luck bails them out time and again. it's not even suckouts necessarily--it could be a cooler or just a weird spot where they have some weird hand combo (mostly in omaha), and im using their style of play to dictate how i play, and their style just happens to be congruent with whatever random hand they have (whether it be a monster or a cheesewheel that gets there). part of the problem is that i often guess wrong, and make a big-time fold when they are bluffing, and make a donk call when they have the goods. BUT the call makes sense; it's not just me losing my cookies and going on tilt. i am very good at adjusting to my opps. and fiddling with my hand ranges to make the most optimum plays for +ev. this is at 20 and 25 nl, and i just leave my opps. in the dust in terms of their poker knowledge and skill, yet it is i who am losing consistently. in the tourneys i play, i almost always get the money in good. it's mostly cash games where the chuckleheads get the best of me.
 
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Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:37 PM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Do you use tracking software?
 
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Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:54 PM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I was going to ask the same question as TrumpinJoe. I'm not sure if the wall of text above is just a rant, or whether you actually want some advice.
A string of bad beats can make someone lose their ability to make an accurate appraisal of their own play or the quality of their opponents. Tracking software can help you to find out for sure if you've really been losing to brutal suckouts, or if you've actually made some bad calls.
It's easy to become complacent if you've been winning in the past. When your luck turns, it can feel like the world is against you, but it can also lead to poor decision making, leading to the losses being bigger than they should be.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:33 PM
(#4)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I was going to ask the same question as TrumpinJoe. I'm not sure if the wall of text above is just a rant, or whether you actually want some advice.
A string of bad beats can make someone lose their ability to make an accurate appraisal of their own play or the quality of their opponents. Tracking software can help you to find out for sure if you've really been losing to brutal suckouts, or if you've actually made some bad calls.
It's easy to become complacent if you've been winning in the past. When your luck turns, it can feel like the world is against you, but it can also lead to poor decision making, leading to the losses being bigger than they should be.
tracking software would only allow me to analyze my own hands and not the hands of others b/c the site i play on has no screennames--u are an annoynomous number at a table, so u never know who ur playing against. i know my fundamentals are dead on. i'm not the best hand reader, but i make up for it by playing my hands as best i can according to my opp's potential range. i usually don't let bad beats bother me for more than 12-24 hours. if im still upset, i sit out. but it's so ridiculous. i play for a few hours and im always just mad as hell with all the times that i get rivered, or the fact that somebody much worse than me makes a horrible play and doubles up from it b/c the other guy in the hand makes an even worse play, yet i sit at the table as long as i can take it and everyone folds when i have a big hand. it's extremely evident that i'm a better player. i could do a running commentary on all of the mistakes i see. there are better players than me at the levels i play, i know that...but on my site, i would estimate that 90% of all the players are either worse than me or as good as i am (below 100 nl, at which my experience exists). yeah, i go on tilt, but u could hardly blame me after awhile. i try to keep it in check as best i can. i want to be a pro one day, so i have to keep my level of play up. i know my donkey behaviors decrease significantly with time.
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:20 PM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hey dude, fish thrustrating you mate?, I get that feeling often on cash tables.

The problem with cash games, especailly at low levels, there is more gambling than skill.

Often a player will go on a fish draw with less, it is too easy to buy back in, they know to keep shoving, the odds will favour them on ATC eventually.

Avoid the fish,if there is to many fish at one table leave. I want personally about 2-3 fish on a full ring table.
Do not mix it and try to play them at their level of starting ranges, that is fatal.

All said and done, if you are winning and doing well at tourneys, stick to tourneys.

Playing cash games is a completely different style and test of nerves than a tourney. Often a gambler on a weekend will happily blow $100 on a quick poker gamble, I see this often at casino.

To them it is quick and easy bucks, a different approach than BRM and the grind.

Choose your hours of play carefully, look for less player average per pot on your game choice.

GL mate
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:13 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
FWIW, I disagree with almost everything holdemace486 wrote above.

The reason why you can get big winrates at nanostakes cash games is BECAUSE there are so many clueless gamblers. Having a skill edge is what makes these games so profitable. Even a 7/2 nitbox can make money, because the fish have no idea that his 3-bet is always AA/KK.

If a fish will stack off 100bb with a flush draw on the flop, I'm loving my top pair top kicker, because I'm going to double up about 60% of the time.
QUOTE: "the odds will favour them on ATC eventually" is just wrong. The odds don't change over time. AA will beat 72o 88.22% of the time. 72 won't suddenly be more likely to win because it lost on previous occasions.

Personally, I LOVE finding a table where I'm the only reg and everyone else is terribad. Observing the bad players is crucial for finding the best ways to exploit them. If a player is a calling station, you only make value bets and don't bluff. If the fish is a bluffer, you can just call down when he's spewing. Once you've got notes on guys (so you know what their bets/raises mean) it's a simple matter of getting it in when you're sure your ahead, and folding when you're not.

I also want to play on a table where the pots are often multiway, because this means I'll typically have the chance to win bigger pots against players with weak ranges. The last thing I want to do (for entertainment and profit) is to just steal the blinds, or get heads up and win a small pot on the flop.

In the short run, bad players can go on a heater and keep hitting their gutshots. But in the medium-long run, these players do not make money. They are donating to the solid regs. That's why we should welcome them into our games. Fish are who we WANT to play against, because FISH => PROFIT.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:00 PM
(#7)
DiveAllIn's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
well said Arty
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:25 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
I would agree with Arty's post except for the fact that I stopped reading the post HE'S commenting on after the beginning of the 4th paragraph.

"Avoid the fish..."

>> FACE PALM SMILIE NEEDED <<
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:33 PM
(#9)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
I do not say avoid the fish, I said avoid to many fish.

If you are on a table with 8 fish and they constantly shove ATC, what do you think realistically the chances of any hand holding up in multiple all inns are?

The more players per pot, the less odds you have. even with aces.

You can not buff a fish who are calling stations, they just do not understand what you are representing,and sometimes don't care what you are representing.

The weekend drunk casual player could not care if you showed him aces, he will still call you on a gamble.

They do not care about maths or BRM, they do not care if they lose, and that is the difference.

Too many cooks spoil the broth, too much salt makes it taste sour, a fine balance of cooks and salt,
and the soup tastes yummy.

Gl
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:46 PM
(#10)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
The reason why you can get big winrates at nanostakes cash games is BECAUSE there are so many clueless gamblers. Having a skill edge is what makes these games so profitable. Even a 7/2 nitbox can make money, because the fish have no idea that his 3-bet is always AA/KK.
More fish = higher win rate for solid players. The price paid for the win rate gain is an increase in variance. Higher risk for a higher reward. I wonder where I heard that before?

Good decisions.
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:58 PM
(#11)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketchup143 View Post
tracking software would only allow me to analyze my own hands and not the hands of others b/c the site i play on has no screennames--u are an annoynomous number at a table, so u never know who ur playing against. i know my fundamentals are dead on. i'm not the best hand reader, but i make up for it by playing my hands as best i can according to my opp's potential range.
Please excuse me for being blunt.

Without a tracking program, or diligent note taking, you have no factual basis for these claims. You don't "know", you "think', "feel", "believe", or maybe "hope" they are as you say. You are making claims you cannot substantiate, I know because I've been there myself.

Growth as a poker players requires the ability to undertake brutally honest self-evaluation. This does not come naturally, it is a learned behaviour that helps us to achieve our goals. We take the short term pain to make a long term gain.

Good Decisions.
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:50 PM
(#12)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
No,I repeat...NO...winning player would ever say there is such a thing as too many fish. Because a winning player realizes it's NOT how many pots/hands you win it's how many chips or how much money.

+EV is +EV is +EV

It doesn't fluctuate. You don't try to catch it in bottles. As Arty laid out in his post,there are many different types of fish...spazzers,calling stations,timid mouse types,bluff-tards...more types of fish than there are snowflakes...recognizing who's what and exploiting them to max value is the single best way to make a profit in the micro-stakes.

What's the alternative? Having a 3-4 fish at the table and the other seats are regs,who we now have to compete with to get the fishes chips? That's just plain dumb and I'm not the sharing type anyway.

You may very well win a lower percentage of the hands playing on a table full of fish since you'll more often be playing for multi-way pots and stacks,but the hands you win will far offset any hands you lose. Because you'll oft time be stacking 2 or 3 players at once on such a table.

More fish = more profit.

Anyone who doesn't get that...may want to re-examine who is and who isn't the ocean dweller at the table.
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:08 PM
(#13)
willhebe's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 190
If everyone folds when you have a big hand I'm not sure if they are that bad. They must have noticed something about your play. To me paying off when fish hit their miracle hand and them folding when I hit a big hand is a sign I'm doing something wrong. Or they are better than I think they are.
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:31 PM
(#14)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
No,I repeat...NO...winning player would ever say there is such a thing as too many fish. Because a winning player realizes it's NOT how many pots/hands you win it's how many chips or how much money.

+EV is +EV is +EV

More fish = more profit.

Anyone who doesn't get that...may want to re-examine who is and who isn't the ocean dweller at the table.
I agree with this 100%. I want as many fish at my tables as I can possibly get. The more the merrier.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:48 PM
(#15)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willhebe View Post
If everyone folds when you have a big hand I'm not sure if they are that bad. They must have noticed something about your play. To me paying off when fish hit their miracle hand and them folding when I hit a big hand is a sign I'm doing something wrong. Or they are better than I think they are.
u certainly have a point there. it was very hard for me to swallow in the past that i must be doing something wrong for this exact sceario to keep happening. in the past, i would continue to play at a table full of really good players just to maintain my pride. i felt like i could compete with them. however, i know now that i should find tables full of players worse than me if i want to make a profit. i used to have a really hard time leaving a table when i was losing. i would stay until i had a small profit. i would continue to play and eventually get stacked anyway. i would always leave a table with a bigger loss than i should have had. i'm trying to play my hands in a way that will make me the most money all the time. it's not always gonna work b/c somebody will do something really goofy and it might butcher my whole plan. i feel like donkeys pay donkeys off, but they don't pay off somebody they perceive to be good. they look at me and know i must have something, whereas they would make the call if they were in the hand with somebody who likes to show down third pair, or who likes to make bluffs with busted flush draws, or who likes to call down with just a bare flush draw, even if it's with only one hole card and it's a 2 or 3. and i am perfectly capable of making big folds, like folding a set or a two pair if im 80% sure im beat or what not. and remember, im playing 25 and 50 nl mostly, not 5 nl...the players should have a little bit more of a clue, correct? and i am really good at determinig my table's playing habits...i can see if it's gonna be a tight table, a loose table, or a passive table, and adjust accordingly. im always adjusting my hand ranges to fit the situation. that's what makes poker fun. if a table is profitless or appears to be a waste of my time, im out of there. it's about me being able to maintain control.
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:56 PM
(#16)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
BronzeStar
i admit that my first post was a bit of a rant. after several sessions of playing for an hour or two at a table and never winning as much as i feel i should have won, it starts to eat at u. i feel like almost everyone else i play against doesn't care whether they win or lose, whereas im sweating out every hand trying to do my absolute best and often coming up short. maybe i do have weakness, but i honestly can't conceive of what they are. i know when i make a mistake; it hurts me worse than it should, but i force myself to forget it and move on. if it's realy bad, i have to quit and go mope somewhere else so i don't leak chips. i replay hands in my head for a good part of the day. im really trying to fix errors, but i can't seem to. playing outside my bankroll does hurt me, and im working on that. i think 70% of my problem right now is plain old bad luck. what i could do is buy some tracking software and a webcam, and film myself reviewing my sessions and posting them on youtube, perhaps, so that i feel like i am responding to more people than myself. it adds a degree of responsiility that i otherwise wouldn't have.
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:02 PM
(#17)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
Please excuse me for being blunt.

Without a tracking program, or diligent note taking, you have no factual basis for these claims. You don't "know", you "think', "feel", "believe", or maybe "hope" they are as you say. You are making claims you cannot substantiate, I know because I've been there myself.

Growth as a poker players requires the ability to undertake brutally honest self-evaluation. This does not come naturally, it is a learned behaviour that helps us to achieve our goals. We take the short term pain to make a long term gain.

Good Decisions.
i know this. i am often humbled by the play of others. one of my problems is giving an opp. too much credit when they win a hand. i think they know what they're doing, but then i see them make mistake after mistake in hands that im not involved in. but i can tell when somebody is truly better than me, and i have to just accept that im going to lose to them more often than not. i usually try to see where somebody went right and think about how that pertains to my game. in other words, i use other people's play to help my own. i always know when i am gambling, value betting, semi-bluffing, bluffing, floating, and semi-floating. i calculate pot odds and implied odds at the table, estimating risk and reward. i take it street by street, decision by decision. i don't really know what more i can ask of myself other than what i've mentioned in my post right above this one. i often start and end sessions thinking im better than everyone else, but in the course of play, when it really matters, i know who the shark and who the fish is.
 
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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:08 PM
(#18)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
ketchup...as much as you possibly can...PLAY poker with people who are worse than you...TALK/DISCUSS poker with people who are better than you.

Maybe put a blurb up in the community section of the forum looking for like-minded/comparable players to start a Skype discussion group. Or get a study group focused Home Game Club going. There are a lot of ways to get fresh eyes and brains to look at your game and help out if they can. And oft times in attempting to do the same for others you'll catch yourself learning,or many times and even more importantly,RE-LEARNING something.
 
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Tue Mar 26, 2013, 12:14 AM
(#19)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketchup143 View Post
i feel like almost everyone else i play against doesn't care whether they win or lose, whereas im sweating out every hand trying to do my absolute best and often coming up short. maybe i do have weakness, but i honestly can't conceive of what they are.
That is your problem right there, staring you in the face. Your focus shouldn't be on winning or losing hands. Your focus should be on your decision making. While I realize it is very difficult in reality, ideally you should not care whether you win or lose either! You are going to win. You are going to lose. It really is beside the point.
 
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Tue Mar 26, 2013, 03:43 AM
(#20)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
BronzeStar
i become starry eyed at times, where i fall in love with my hand and don't give it up. this pertains mostly to omaha, where the draws can be a bit overwhelming to "see." it can be hard to calculate ur odds of winning the hand. i sometimes go busto in these situations. but the last three days have just been hell on earth. in omaha, it's been me getting good cards preflop but just flat missing flop after flop. in holdem, it's been me getting rivered and runner-runnered multiple times. i can't seem to get the big equity edges in holdem cash games, and im basically done after some of the losses ive taken in holdem tournamets. im just so tired thinking of all the money "stolen" from me. it wouldn't be too hard to not think about winning and losing, if i didn't lose to the point where i have to keep making deposits and not being able to cash out.
 

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