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puke call syndrome II

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puke call syndrome II - Fri Mar 29, 2013, 10:06 AM
(#1)
wikked76's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 385


PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

PokerEatsMe (BTN): $8.43 (VPIP: 18.03, PFR: 13.41, 3Bet Preflop: 6.41, Hands: 893)
ARA.kr (SB): $6.20 (VPIP: 23.30, PFR: 15.91, 3Bet Preflop: 10.34, Hands: 313)
wikked76 (BB): $7.68
iwantwhiskey (UTG): $2.50 (VPIP: 20.43, PFR: 17.20, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 95)
candybear2 (MP): $9.22 (VPIP: 35.71, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 14)
emerorum (CO): $5.13 (VPIP: 22.08, PFR: 17.20, 3Bet Preflop: 4.27, Hands: 484)

ARA.kr posts SB $0.02, wikked76 posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) wikked76 has J:club: K:club:

fold, fold, fold, fold, ARA.kr raises to $0.15, wikked76 calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.30, 2 players) Q:heart: 8:diamond: 3:club:
ARA.kr checks, wikked76 bets $0.15, ARA.kr calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.60, 2 players) 9:diamond:
ARA.kr checks, wikked76 checks

River: ($0.60, 2 players) T:diamond:
ARA.kr bets $5.90 and is all-in, wikked76 calls $5.90


Wow! Lucky me! I binked the supposedly 2nd nuts on the river (next to a flush that is)...

And villain jams $5.90 into a 60c pot

Would you ever even think of calling here???
 
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Fri Mar 29, 2013, 02:35 PM
(#2)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
I would call here, the only flushes that really make sense are big A's that didn't hit the flop but didn't want to fold OTF. For example ATdd and AJdd as well as A3dd but other than that I don't think he will have many flushes as a lot of combos aren't possible due to the way the board runs out. Also I think villain can shove here with worse hands such as badly played sets (looking to check raise the turn) and two pair that's way overvaluing their hand such as Q9/QT/89/8T.

To call we have to have 48% equity, against a range of QQ,99-88,33,AdQd,AdJd,AdTd,Ad3d,KJs,QTs-Q9s,T8s,98s,KJo we have over 75% equity. Even if we decide villain doesn't shove 2 pair like this and has way more flushes than the above range it's still a call. Against QQ,99-88,33,AdQd,AdJd,AdTd,Ad7d,Ad6d,Ad5d,Ad4d,Ad3d,KJs, KJo we have 57% equity. I think you will see a flush here sometime but we play against the villains range and I think that dictates we call.


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Fri Mar 29, 2013, 08:49 PM
(#3)
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
I think I'll barrel the Turn as well, though it's not a good scare card. Because I've seen quite a number of players opening, check/calling Flop, check/folding Turn. Here we can fold out Ax type of hands and mid PPs. Coaches pls advise if this is legitimate

OTR, tough spot. We have only invested 6bb into this pot, gotta call 120bb with second nuts. I'll lean towards folding, wait for a better spot (Bad experience with backdoor flushes and this hand could tilt your remaining session if he had the goods)
 
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Sat Mar 30, 2013, 08:19 AM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,308
This is a really confusing spot, but I'm folding the river. Villain's overbet jam is polarizing. It's nuts or air, so it doesn't matter whether you have a straight or one pair. Both hands lose to flushes and beat ace high.
The main reason I think he can have a flush here is that it's blind vs blind, so his flop peel can be with a wide range. It's hard to put villain on a range that doesn't c-bet, but check-calls the flop, but I think he sometimes does this with ace high with backdoor diamonds, such as Ad3d that hit bottom pair, because he's not going to give you credit for having anything.
Sets and two pairs (apart from T9) also seem unlikely, because pocket pairs and Qx are usually betting/raising the flop. Also, with a turned set, rivered straight or rivered two pair, the standard play would be a normal sized value-bet, or (on such a scary river) a check-call as a bluff catcher. Villain should be just as scared of the flush as you are, so it would be pretty crazy to shove with less than a flush, when that's the only hand that's calling.
There's also the cliché of "river donks/shoves are always the nuts". He might even have a straight flush and is praying you call with the nut flush. The bet is just too big for me to consider calling with anything less.
So without a specific note (like "Shoves rivers as bluff"), I'm not hero-calling here.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sat Mar 30, 2013, 08:19 AM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,308
[dupe post deleted]


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sat Mar 30, 2013, 08:50 AM
(#6)
DiveAllIn's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
no not calling here but what was his steal % in SB? just curious maybe a 3bet preflop or not
 
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Sat Mar 30, 2013, 09:06 AM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
This river looks like it *might* be one of those situations I'm trying to 'train' myself to look at differently - where out hand improves, but somebody else's may have improved more?

And then here, wikked had the K too - so there was like that chance the villain could have been shoving with just a J, and the K could have made the better straight ... like there's that hope ...


Most of us are in-between like 5nl and 10nl, and I guess by 25nl, by the turn, we're maybe supposed to be able to have noticed that a non-diamond T would give us the nuts (emphasis on the non-diamond) ... so like we don't get *too* excited if it's the Td, jic? This is gonna take me a while I think ... :/

Did the villain have just the J wikked? Fingers-crossed it was something like that, and not like Ad 3d? Or like Ad Kd?
 
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Sat Mar 30, 2013, 09:26 AM
(#8)
wikked76's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 385


steal att @ SB is 50% (7/14)over 284 hands
 
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Sat Mar 30, 2013, 10:16 AM
(#9)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
easy fold even 4 a fish like me. u called 100BB to win a 12BB pot . u can never make that call u lose even if he has KJ like u the rake will kill u. he made a great value bet .
 
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Sat Mar 30, 2013, 11:52 AM
(#10)
wikked76's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong263 View Post
easy fold even 4 a fish like me. u called 100BB to win a 12BB pot . u can never make that call u lose even if he has KJ like u the rake will kill u. he made a great value bet .

hey kingkong,

guess i AM the bigger fish.. lol
 
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Sat Mar 30, 2013, 02:32 PM
(#11)
kingkong263's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 175
live and learn
 
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Sat Mar 30, 2013, 04:49 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Probably it's easier to be objective when we're not involved in the hand, in real time, away from the tables, etc?

I've got a leak that people would probably find hard to understand if I were to post a couple of examples - I have this tendency to sometimes bluff-catch ... when my hand isn't any better. Like somebody'll mini-check-raise on the driest of dry boards, with a big timing tell, and so my instinct'll be to call ... and then I'll wind up losing to A-high or whatever. So *right*, but oh so *wrong* ...

Guess that's what the micro-stakes are for ... working on all these little things, eh?

 
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Sun Mar 31, 2013, 09:27 AM
(#13)
wikked76's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 385
@sam:

hell yeah!!
bottom line is that we're all here to learn, share and improve..

still trying to learn the differnce between bluff catching and calling down those huge donkshove overbets on the river.

even if it means i've gotta show the world watta big donkfish i am

glgl at the felts!!!
 
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Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:22 AM
(#14)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,308
It's great that you post hands like this wikked! Most would be far too embarrassed. I'm pretty good at making very light hero calls (when I have good notes on a player) but I've certainly made some calls in situations like this and felt utterly stupid afterwards. The lesson I learned was to simply not call river donk shoves without a very good reason. If you've never seen a particular villain go all in with a total bluff before, he's probably not doing it now, and it will cost you a lot of chips to find out.
Maybe you should put a post-it note on your monitor:
"I will not call river donk shoves by an unknown"
"I will not call river donk shoves by an unknown"
"I will not call river donk shoves by an unknown"

In short, if the thought of calling makes you puke, don't call!


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Mar 31, 2013, 12:42 PM
(#15)
wikked76's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Maybe you should put a post-it note on your monitor:
"I will not call river donk shoves by an unknown"
"I will not call river donk shoves by an unknown"
"I will not call river donk shoves by an unknown"

In short, if the thought of calling makes you puke, don't call!

lol.. thanks for the advice Arty.
me thinks it'll be hard to not puke tho

glgl
 

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