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AK over rated

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AK over rated - Wed Apr 03, 2013, 03:52 PM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
just wondering are any of you guys having as much bad luck with AK offsuit as me i win with about 1 in 6 and when your 3 betting and re raising to lose the hand so often it puts a big hole in your profits im actually 8 dollars down with them and 7 up with AK suited, so whats your thoughts?
 
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Wed Apr 03, 2013, 04:19 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Hi mike!

There are so many things that need to be taken into account here that it's not possible to answer you. The table dynamics, stack sizes, player tendencies, bet sizes, etc... all of this must be taken into account and they will vary each and every time.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Apr 03, 2013, 04:56 PM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
well im not calling big raises with them if thats what you mean because il put them on aa kk or ak which is pointless getting involved in normally il 3 bet and get called or re raise a 3 bet and the flop always comes 10s and under and il get beat by jumk like 9 10 suited or something that ppl shoudnt be calling my re raises with, i dnt expect to win 24/7 with ak or even AA but i should be turning over a profit when ive had 59 hands of ak off suit ive got more profit out of pocket 3s its ridiculous

i had a hand earlier where villain raises so i re raised his 3bet 3x with AK he calls i hit top pair top kicker he raises a pot raise, so i figure he has pocket aces beacuse the other two cards were 3 and 8 and theres noway he would of hit them cus he was a fairly tight player so i called a ace hit the turn so i now know he has only 1 ace so im thinking im well ahead or we both got ak anyway it ends up with us both all in for him to turn over ace 3 suited to win with a full house which is fair enough but im thinking what the hell is he doing calling my re raise preflop with that hand when he was a tight player i dunno maybe he felt like gamble with a3 i can handle that loss but it just seems like im losing way to often with AK
 
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Wed Apr 03, 2013, 05:19 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Hi mike!

In the last example... what type of tourney was it or was it a cash table? What were the bet sizes, how many opps were in the pot and what were the stack sizes. It may have been the right play, it might have been the wrong one, but without this necessary info, the only answer I can say is... it depends.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Apr 03, 2013, 05:40 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
FWIW, I think AK is the most over-played and over-valued hand in cash games, especially in full ring microstakes games. In tourneys, where you're usually short-stacked, it's a true monster and you're often getting it in good (or at least flipping) if all the money goes in pre-flop. In cash games, not so much.

I've been a winning player since basically day 1 of my "career", but I was actually losing money with AK for my first 20,000 hands. Partly this was because I was never winning races (i.e. just variance) but also I was getting my money in bad against nits that always had QQ+.
In the long run, AK will typically win the pot 60-65% of the time you have it, but it's mainly only the small pots that you win, by stealing blinds or getting just one or two streets of value. If you find yourself in a big pot with AK and one pair, you're usually losing.

I'd like to see hand history/replayer for the hand you posted, but I've learned to fold TPTK when getting heat, especially from nitty set-miners. On an A83 board, you're only getting raised by hands that beat you. Usually the nit will have a set, but (especially at 2NL/5NL) nits just love playing suited aces because they can make the nut flush, so A8s and A3s are often in their range, even in 3-bet pots.

I think there might be a training video specifically about AK, so you might want to search the archives.


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 05:41 PM.. Reason: typo
 
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Thu Apr 04, 2013, 09:13 AM
(#6)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi mike!

There are so many things that need to be taken into account here that it's not possible to answer you. The table dynamics, stack sizes, player tendencies, bet sizes, etc... all of this must be taken into account and they will vary each and every time.

John (JWK24)
Jw gives you the answer in this post, there is nothing else to consider but this post as JW correctly states.

Personally, I would post some of these Ak hands you lose on in HA, <hand analysis>.

A lot of beats can be avoided with the right decision's , as Arty point's out and a common mistake is running into nits with hands like QQ.

That in the past was often my down fall, not reading the table dynamics correctly.

GL
 
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Thu Apr 04, 2013, 01:43 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
hi just came on for some reason i cant find my hands in the history but im sure il get some ak hands today so il post them up if i think there worth a look, anyway he had the biggest stack of 5 dollars on a 1c 2c table i had 2 60 odd, the bets pre flop got raised up to 18c by me he called then quickly pot betted, when some1 does a pot bet its normally top pair atleast but i wenrt folding AK yet as i said before if i was putting him on anything it was AA or AK but i felt il look at the turn and fold to a re raise if nothing helps my hand but when that ace came i was like im well ahead so im taking the lead on betting but it ended up all in by the river which is when he turned over a full house what i should of done was said to myself this is getting to exspensive for a 1 pair on these stakes but i collared him bluffing when he misses the flop with a pot bet which probally helped in making me call but when the ace hit on the turn i was sucked in i wernt gonna fold lol.

i dnt think i played it badly i got unlucky when that ace came out but as i said i can handle a loss like that its just im losing to often with them to ppl not even holding premium hands, i think il just bet less with top pair top kicker on a dry board and if i get a big re raise il just let them go il prob make alot more money by not losing so much on ak
 
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Thu Apr 04, 2013, 04:24 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
whats the chance of getting beat by this

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner
 
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Thu Apr 04, 2013, 06:10 PM
(#9)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
The ace-king isn't over rated, but it is a dangerous hand. Top two cards makes it a strong hand pre flop, but once the flop shows, my win rates drop to 450. (See my continuing study of the group one and two hands in Stats to Drown In - Beginners section) If you don't pair, you are most likely drawing to an inside straight. Since any straight will be, at best, a one-card chase, the odds are around 16 percent. (4 outs times 4 = 16 percent.) Am sure somebody will have the actual numbers, but these are approximate. Those odds go down by half after the turn.

When it does hit, I find it a major chip winner in my SNG games. If I play it, it can become a major chip drain if it misses. You have to have the courage to pay for the flop and fold when you miss, no card hunts. Others say my poor play is the reason for the bad percentages. I just cannot hit the insider, second pair, or if suited, the nut flush. Also, chip players are more prone to chase, so the odds of another player winning goes up with each additional player.
 
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Fri Apr 05, 2013, 04:38 AM
(#10)
ThomasOslo's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 30
I think it is indeed overrated. AK is just too high cards and are even underdog even to small pairs.

It is a hand where you win small pots when you win and lose bigger pots when you lose
 
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Fri Apr 05, 2013, 05:59 AM
(#11)
Droagon's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 2
AK is definitely often overvalued. I found it was one of my biggest leaks. Though it shouldn't be a surprise that AKs does better. looking at 20000 hands from earlier this year where I lost big on AKo I was ahead with AKs. I now often fold to reraises with AK. I try to never go all in preflop with AK. And if it misses I am ready to fold.

I think of it as 'Ace Killer'. (to kill my tournament life if I play. it wrong)


If I am calling a short stack, say 2 to 1 or better and can hope for it to be heads up I will call with it it otherwise it's often not worth it.

Of course it should be played differently in cash games and tourneys depending on stack size, position etc.

To me AK is a claymore. it's a strong drawing hand

I love stealing blinds with it, and happy if they fold.

you would all have heard that ""its better to win a small pot than to lose a big one", well especially as far as AK goes I think it's better to win a small pot or fold than to RISK losing a big one by playing, what is after all only ace high with a strong kicker,too hard.
 
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Fri Apr 05, 2013, 07:56 AM
(#12)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
whats the chance of getting beat by this

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Hi Mike, you ask what the chances of you been beaten on the full house you had. There was every chance you could be beaten, this is Omaha.

I personally thought you play on this hand, was not good.

Pre flop - limp

Flop- Bet out utg with low pair on a heavy drawing board, call a raise and not considered the 3s on the flop.

You fished Mike, looking to make a set of 5s giving you a full house.

I was screaming at the screen when watching your hand to fold. I thought the opp had Ace diamonds to be honest. A 6d even better for him.

But both of you completely fished.

1c - 2c blinds, just play text book, if you havent got it, fold it.

Your preflop semi steal was terrible. The bet was to small for a steal.

And at 1c 2 c the bet always seems small. Players do not realize what 3x the BB stand fors, they just see has 6c.
NOt knowing that in poker terms, 3x could be 3k if the BB were 1k.

What I am trying to say to you, is no matter what the buyin, play as if every single cent was a 1k chip.


Have a respect for your 1c chips.

Would you put 3k in real money ,on the flop in this hand, utg with only 55 in your hand?

It starts to seem a different context.

Gl MIke hope you undestand.
 
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Fri Apr 05, 2013, 01:44 PM
(#13)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
yh i can see what your saying mace but let me tell you what i was thinking, so i limped low pockets which i know your sposed to raise if your first in the pot but i know with omaha you need a strong hand and the pot gets big anyway and everyone we call with anything on omaha anyway so i figured i would limp looking for a set or a straight, so when the flop came i had a straight draw so i done a small bet hoping to make a straight by the turn which i hit but then we had a flush there aswell so i checked the turn then called his tiny raise to make a full house on the river i was putting him on a ace flush so i checked hoping for a raise which was a peanuts raise by him and so i went all in because you can t be scared of straight flushes there so rare maybe not as much in omaha but still.

on that note do you raise all your pocket pairs in holdem? i normally limp low pockets and raise utg and fold to re raises
 
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Fri Apr 05, 2013, 02:01 PM
(#14)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
on that note do you raise all your pocket pairs in holdem? i normally limp low pockets and raise utg and fold to re raises
Hi Mike!

I'll gladly limp behind with low/mid pockets, but the one thing that I will not do is to open-limp. If I'm the first one into the pot, I'm raising or folding.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Apr 05, 2013, 02:09 PM
(#15)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
cool yh it makes sense il have to change my game up abit then
 
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Fri Apr 05, 2013, 05:32 PM
(#16)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
All I know is I can't get AK to win even when I dominate or hit the flop hard, whether it is in tournament or cash play...,all-in pre or post flop,

eg 1 all-in pre flop tourney today

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...116_FE8C469954

eg 2 all-in post flop at 2NL FR today

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...053_BAAF5EFE2F


maybe just a bad day though

Ed
 
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Sat Apr 06, 2013, 04:26 PM
(#17)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
To the Op'er and everyone else dogging AK (suited or no...) in this thread,I just gotta say...if you're losing with AKs and/or AKo over anything resembling a largish sample size...you REALLY need to examine YOUR play because you're doing something wrong.

I've never,ever,in my life known a consistently winning player who dislikes AK.

If you have this hand...yes it's behind any pair pre-flop,but it's only crushed by TWO,AA and KK of course. QQ-22 it's really flipping with in all honesty. ANY non-paired hand it's a clear favorite against. Any other Ax hand it's crushing. Mostly 70-30% AKo against any Axs hand and 75% for AKo against any Axo hand.

I just don't see the problem with playing a hand that I know I'm only in bad shape against TWO hands in poker.

It's a clear category 1 hand,suited or not,many pros will take AKo over JJ any day of the week and you should be WINNING by a clear margin with it,both suited and non-suited.

If not...nose to grindstone time and get into the self-examination process because I guarantee you're doing something,or several things possibly,wrong with this holding.
 
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Sat Apr 06, 2013, 05:09 PM
(#18)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Hi Mike, you ask what the chances of you been beaten on the full house you had. There was every chance you could be beaten, this is Omaha.

I personally thought you play on this hand, was not good.

Pre flop - limp

Flop- Bet out utg with low pair on a heavy drawing board, call a raise and not considered the 3s on the flop.

You fished Mike, looking to make a set of 5s giving you a full house.

I was screaming at the screen when watching your hand to fold. I thought the opp had Ace diamonds to be honest. A 6d even better for him.

But both of you completely fished.

1c - 2c blinds, just play text book, if you havent got it, fold it.

Your preflop semi steal was terrible. The bet was to small for a steal.

And at 1c 2 c the bet always seems small. Players do not realize what 3x the BB stand fors, they just see has 6c.
NOt knowing that in poker terms, 3x could be 3k if the BB were 1k.

What I am trying to say to you, is no matter what the buyin, play as if every single cent was a 1k chip.


Have a respect for your 1c chips.

Would you put 3k in real money ,on the flop in this hand, utg with only 55 in your hand?

It starts to seem a different context.

Gl MIke hope you undestand.
Um yeah,if you're going to analyze an Omaha hand holdem try to know the rules first. JUST the Ad or 6d alone wouldn't matter because you have to complete your hand using TWO hole cards and three on the board. So Ad or 6d without another diamond is moot.

By the by,he didn't attempt to steal pre-flop,he completed from the SB. You even say "pre-flop-limp" in your post and then later criticize the player for a "semi-steal" (whatever THAT is...) attempt.

OP'er as played...

The limp from the SB...nothing wrong with this at all. In .01/.02 Omaha,whether standard or PLO8,if I'm getting 10-1 on calling a penny off from the SB to see a flop there are damn few hands I WON'T complete with because the post flop play in .01/.02 Omaha is so bad. Play here is standard and OK.

Flop---THIS I have a problem with. We've flopped an open ended straight draw,but there are 2 diamonds on the board and we have none. With 5 players in this pot it's extremely likely that at least one of them has 2 diamonds,especially since we have none in our hand. That means they're drawing much stronger than we are. pot control with a check is in order here and be ready to find our fold button to nay aggression. Now were this PLO8,Omaha Hi/lo,then I would be inclined to possibly play along to an inexpensively raised board as we could be in line to chop the pot by hitting the bottom. That's a tricky play though and for an inexperienced player I would advise steering clear of chasing low only expectation hands as too often you'll chop that low and get 25%,or worse,of a pot. That's not good. Standard Hi only Omaha I'm checking this flop and easy folding to pretty much any bet.

Turn---Third diamond hits,we're crushed by ANY 2 diamonds in the villains hand and our only hope is to pair to have a third 3 hit the board or to have one of the 2 remaining 5's come. And if it's the 3 we're STILL beat by any overpair to our 5's in the villain's hand. Even should we catch our 5 there is still a chance of a straight flush on this board.Never mind the chance that the villain has two 3's in their hand for quads. Do NOT be fooled,straight flushes and quads in Omaha,while not abundant by any means,are far more common place than in standard Hold 'em games and have to be a real consideration on a board this coordinated for the straight flush and anytime for the quads. This is a CLEAR fold at this point as even an improvement on our part is not necessarily helping us.


River---We DO get there and with the 5 no less so we're beating anything but quad 3's or a straight flush. When the villain just bets .04 over our check here...I really don't like basically committing our stack with this raise. He's never calling a bet this big with worse here as our line screams either a boat or a better flush than any kind of K,Q or J high flushes that he may hold. I would have raised say .12-.15 here or even just taken our showdown value and called. Really don't think he's ever calling with any hand we beat except A and maybe K high flushes. The .12-.15 size bet we could get called with many worse hands. When we over bet like this we polarize the range that the villain CAN call with too much. It's either a very narrow range that we beat or something that beats us...in this case the straight flush with the 7d6d holding.
 
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Sat Apr 06, 2013, 05:45 PM
(#19)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
thanks for looking at that hand moxie, i jnow i should of folded alot earlier but i think i was a little annoyed i feel like im due a win sometimes im playing tight and seeing loads of hands that i couldnt of won and when i get something semi decent il have a look if its cheap and i got trapped in this case.

another example is today in holdem with ak suited now i dnt play like this normally with ak and never lose that much in a bet either when im getting wins here and there but i knew these two players went all in with nothing i been watching them for a good 2 hrs and i didnt get 1 winning hand against them that i saw where two players went to showdown which was quite often so when i got AK suited i was already thinking im due a win (this was a big mistake) when i called 1 dollar something pre flop and missed i tryed checking it but knew this kid would of tryed bluffing me out of the pot anyway though this time he hit two pair i was disgusted at there cards but i put myself in this terrible position so its my fault i just was really annoyed watching these fish that were raising every single hand and they were switching 10 dollars between eachother and i havent had a single winning hand and its been like this for days now and im finding it really hard to keep my cool when people with no clue are winning with junk, which ended up with my trying my luck i played the hand bad because i knew he bluffed alot and got caught out my vp was 12 in this game and they were just peeling 30 cent at a time off me when i had pocket kings queens aces ect, i mean what do you do when none of your hands win its a joke il post the AK hand below
 
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Sat Apr 06, 2013, 05:55 PM
(#20)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

As i said before i dnt expect to win with top pockets and ak every time and i know that ak suited ent worth what your gonna see int his hand but like i said earlier i cant win with nothing even when i play the hands like they should be played so i tryed my luck and got destroyed but just take a look at there cards as i said i was right they go all in with nothing and was bluffing every hand they got involved in which helped me to call his all in
 

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