Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

5NL - optimal line to extract max value with flopped boat

Old
Default
5NL - optimal line to extract max value with flopped boat - Fri Apr 05, 2013, 08:35 AM
(#1)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
I felt like I misplayed this hand and lost value by raising turn.

Villain is pretty much an unknown, I only have 28 hands on him and the stats don't show anything of interest.

His flop cbet is kind of standard on this board, so I decided to flat and not blow him off with an AK/AQ/KQ/KJ type of hand.

Once he fires turn, it seems that he is interested in the hand since the turn is kind of a blank so I figured he might bet here with PP so I decided to raise for value.

I c/r turn to build the pot, since I'm OOP and if I lead turn instead he will fold his non made hands and it felt like he had some over pair when he fired that turn.

Would a flat OTT and lead river be a better idea?
Maybe raising flop instead?

 
Old
Default
Fri Apr 05, 2013, 10:59 AM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
I felt like I misplayed this hand and lost value by raising turn.


Villain is pretty much an unknown, I only have 28 hands on him and the stats don't show anything of interest.
Not sure I agree. When the villain is unknown, it is pretty hard to plan a line that exploits his particular weaknesses. All the conditions were "right" for a slow play of at least 1 street, so that is a pretty "standard" line with a huge flop like this.

According to Mike Caro <paraphrased>: "There is always a cost to deception in poker, and that cost lies in deferred profit. As such, if a "standard" play will work, the most profitable play in the long term is usually that standard play."

You are in the enviable spot where a "deceptive" play (a slow play of at least 1 street) is also the STANDARD play. If you had more info then you might immediately know a better play option with more immediate profit potential, but without info a slow play deferring profit until later is almost always your best option here imho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
His flop cbet is kind of standard on this board, so I decided to flat and not blow him off with an AK/AQ/KQ/KJ type of hand.
We definatly agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Once he fires turn, it seems that he is interested in the hand since the turn is kind of a blank so I figured he might bet here with PP so I decided to raise for value.

I c/r turn to build the pot, since I'm OOP and if I lead turn instead he will fold his non made hands and it felt like he had some over pair when he fired that turn.
This seems very very reasonable to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Would a flat OTT and lead river be a better idea?
Maybe, but then maybe not.

If you know the villain will 3 barrel a paired board then your proposed line is probably a better one (although I'd say reserve the river for a C/R try, and hope he has enough to call). You don't have that info though.

If you know the villain is a CS who will tend to bet medium value hands early, but not bet them on the river, AND if he will station your river bets widely, your proposed line is also probably a better one. You don't have that info though either.

My personal feeling is that trying to get money into the pot on the turn via the C/R is just fine. At that point the opp either has it (enough to call), or he doesn't. OR...He has a leak that will let him call, or he doesn't. Either way you are probably not getting anything more on the river often enough (without specific info) to continue deception, and the attendant profit deferral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Maybe raising flop instead?
Nah, not without knowing if he will think that flop C/R is a bluff often enough to make it profitable to try it.

See above, the slow play is, imho, the "standard" play OTF.

Overall, I think your play was just fine, and you only "lost" value because the opp missed the board. It is pretty hard to extract in that case. At least it is if the villain has a functioning fold button.

;-)

-JDean

Last edited by JDean; Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:03 AM..
 
Old
Default
Fri Apr 05, 2013, 11:55 AM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Hey Geo! What's happened? You usually post really tricky spots for us to look at, but today they've been fairly standard.

JDean's posted a great analysis above.
My line here against an unknown is the one you took. Check-call flop, check-raise turn. It's the same line I'd take with a set or top two.
Villain really can't have much here, despite his double-barrel, but raising the turn should get called by straight and flush draws. Most rivers are unlikely to improve villain's hand, so he's probably not firing for a third street if you did slowplay all the way. Since he'll be usually be checking behind on the river, you should try and get some value now while he might have a draw with QJ or AhKh. Flatting the turn, leading the river might work out fine, but unless villain makes the nut flush, he's probably folding there. (And if he's on the flush draw, he'd probably call the turn raise in the first place, so you'd win an even bigger pot if he hits it).
When you flop a boat, you're often lucky to get just one street of value, so you should really be pleased you actually managed two.
Nice hand.

Cheers,
Arty


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:57 AM..
 
Old
Default
Sat Apr 06, 2013, 06:46 AM
(#4)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hey JD/Arty, thanks for the reply.

It's not been going well this week, that's when you'll find me posting some "standard" hands to get a reconfirmation on my game and get back some confidence

I promise to get you some mind f'n hands soon :p
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com