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NL2 FR: QQ, What did I do wrong?

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NL2 FR: QQ, What did I do wrong? - Sun Apr 07, 2013, 11:02 PM
(#1)
NfinITE55's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 6


Villain had been playing pretty tight when it came to pre-flop.

I know I played this hand horribly, after checking and calling post flop I wanted to shove him off of what I assumed was him waiting for a draw, especially after the turn and river left a dry board. I just want to know how I could play something like this out better then how I did.
 
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Mon Apr 08, 2013, 01:26 AM
(#2)
mimesis.is's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 74
First thing first, start with 100BB (in this case $2). That way when you do land a big cooler you'll be getting paid off the maximum.
Preflop I'd be raising about 3-4BB tops. With your current preflop bet people won't usually call you with anything worse than a pair (say 66+) or KQs+, AQo+, that sort of range. The villain that calls is probably a pretty tight player preflop (why? he's up money and playing tight ABC poker at low limits is the best strategy) so I'd be putting him on roughly the range mentioned above. You want a wider range calling you so that they can hit (for example) a J or T and be losing top pair vs. overpair.

On the flop we don't see an ace or king so you're ahead of some of his range at least. Firing a c-bet (say 15-20c) is probably your best option even though you're ahead of a good chunk of his range because:
-people don't respect c-bets so you can charge more from overcards
-he might just have two clubs and you don't want him seeing a flush for free

Turn changes nothing, would fire again here. If called or raised I'd have to reevaluate the river though.
With the hand villain had you probably would have seen a fold if you had led out on two streets. As it was your check-call then leading out for half pot on the turn looked pretty weak (although you ended up getting in money while you were ahead on both streets regardless so it wasn't all bad).

On the river a king comes down which is a terrible card for you. If V had AA/KK I would have expected a raise or reraise either preflop or on the turn. The only hand that you're beating here is JJ/TT/99 and I'm not sure they'd fire a bet on the river. The blocker bet (if that's what you were trying to do) works for you though and you get to see his cards cheaply, but I've got a feeling i'd rather a check-call or check-fold.


Note: Unlike the other hand which was obvious I'm pretty sure most of what I've said here wasn't quality advice, wait for a proper HA to come along and you'll learn something good.
 
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Passive played Queens ,Death. - Mon Apr 08, 2013, 03:52 AM
(#3)
brettnz's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 377
Were you trying to "trap" with Queens ?,that would be your only reason to check the flop?and NOT a good reason ! When the Big Stack calls you there from that position we must give him credit for some starting hand,he did after all call a 5x BB bet.Think you must give villian starting range of at least made pair 4,4 or 5,5 up to 9,9. and include hands starting at K,T suited to A,K off and suited and of course Pairs TENs or higher,but most likely would have reraised Jacks or better.This all subject to villians prior play,which you should be following and using Hand Review button on top left of screen to at least see what hands he takes to showdown.I would have bet 2/3 of pot after seeing that flop,show STRENGTH not weakness by checking,dont check there unless you plan to RERAISE ! his A,K would then fold or call to see turn.Either way you are still ahead.On the turn,the second 3,bet at least 2/3 again,I would bet pot,villian then has to decide if he is going to call to hit 6 outs,(not likely), or fold,proberly,the same would have occured if villian was holding clubs or straight draws as you expected at your turn bet.You have put them to a hard desicion,they dont like there odds and should fold.But you let the villian bet the amounts they wanted to risk at flop and turn until they hit,WAY, WAY to passive. Hope this helps.
 
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My Thoughts - Mon Apr 08, 2013, 08:26 AM
(#4)
glenn161274's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 146
Yes i think you did play this hand quite badly, first why did you check the flop ? you have what is usually the best hand so you must value bet. You check looking like you have some sort of Ace high hand so he bets thinking he can take it down. Then the board pairs on the turn so now you lead out ? i do not understand what your line was on the turn ? I think the best way was just to be more aggresive bet for value and maybe he quits on the turn, but if he is still going to call until the river if you had bet flop then turn there would be nothing more you could have done. You are also sitting with just over half a stack maybe he chased his card thinking it was not going to cost him a full 100 bb ? Just something else that stood out to me..
 
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Mon Apr 08, 2013, 06:07 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NfinITE55 View Post


Villain had been playing pretty tight when it came to pre-flop.

I know I played this hand horribly, after checking and calling post flop I wanted to shove him off of what I assumed was him waiting for a draw, especially after the turn and river left a dry board. I just want to know how I could play something like this out better then how I did.
PRE FLOP:

I see nothing wrong.

Raising to 10c (5bb to go) creates an SPR which favors your big pp holding if it goes to the flop with YOU as the effective stack.

A lot of people tend to make a raise to only 3bb to go as a standard there, but if you do that here you run the risk of not creating a good target SPR for QQ (such as if you got only 1 caller with a stack bigger than your's), as well as allowing multiple opp's to come along to out flop you.

FLOP:

You have to think your hand is best, even against a "tight" villain. This means after you have created the SPR you desire going to the flop (a low one), the pot has grown; why don't you fire again???

See this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundame...eorem_of_poker

If you checked the flop to slow play because you thought he MIGHT hold a drawing hand, you are essentially allowing him the chance to get a "free card" that lays him infinate odds. You have allowed him to play his hand "right" if he checks behind, and per the link, this COSTS you value.

If you thought by checking he'd BET hands that he might not call if you lead, then your play is a little more understandable. Still, I would say that you do not have enough value in your hand to check/call versus an aggro opponent with QQ as an over pair. In your spot I probably rank my options as:

1) Immediately LEAD, around 1/2 pot
(this denies odds to a 1 way 8 or 9 out draw, but invites a call by a lot of hands weaker than my over pair)

2) Immediately LEAD, around 2/3rds pot+
(this also denies odds, but is less inviting; I would tend to use this if I "know" my opponent will call very very widely)

3) CHECK, with intent to CHECK/RAISE the flop
(I only do this if I a) know my opp is uber aggro and will bet b) he will tend to bet hands he would not call on)

4) CHECK, with the intent to raise or C/R the turn
(this is way risky with an over pair. I would tend to only do this against an UBER TIGHT opp, who also FOLDS way too often. In that case I'd try this line in hopes that a 3rd club comes, and I can represent the flush draw and get KK/AA to fold. This is really far fetched though...)

I'd suggest you check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_play_(poker)

TURN:

You DONK LEAD 22c, which is a bit under half pot .
(A donk lead is not an insult. It is just a way of saying you bet first on a subsequent street after check/calling a prior one)

I see nothing really wrong with this, as the 3 stands to be pretty blank-y if you characterize your opponent as "tight". You have to think you are good still, so you want to bet something you think will get paid. With just overs, the villain may well not have been willing to call much more, so if you ranged him on hands like AK/AQ as a significant part of his range, your bet size is just fine..

In this spot the important thing to do is to bet to DENY ODDS, but INVITE a call when you stand to have the best hand. OTT the villain has 6 live outs versus your QQ, and has about a 13% chance to hit. This means he needs to see about 6.7 to 1 odds to pay for his river. Any bet above about 14c would deny odds, so betting 22c and getting called is just fine. The "tricky" part is betting the absolute MOST to be "inviting" :-)

RIVER:

As played, your river bet of 20c acted as a good blocking bet to prevent him from betting more on his spiked top/top hand. Whether or not this was a good play by you though rests upon whether you knew you were making a blocking bet, and knew the chances for that blocking bet to work, BEFORE you bet the 20c.

Depending upon how much of his range as you perceive it is tied up in hands with a K (or AA hands), depending upon how often he will call on hands that do not hit the K (or are AA), and depending upon how often he might RAISE any perception of "weakness" by you all factors into whether or not betting 20c on the river is a good idea.

I'd ask you: "What would you have done if the villain RAISED your 20c bet, instead of call it?"

If he might raise on a bluff, and you said you'd fold if he did raise, then I hate your 20c river bet. I'd much prefer a check/call line to let him try bluffing me for an amount I am willing to call.

If he will ONLY raise on better, then I think your "blocking bet" of 20c is a lot better. In that case a 20c bet costs you very little (beyond opportunity costs) if villain flats and loses, and it also gives you a cheap road "out" of the hand if he raises which does not totally forego some value on the river.

All in all, I think your biggest "mistake" came OTF when you decided to get all tricky. My gut tells me that this sign of "weakness" led your somewhat spew-y opponent (yes, I know you characterize him as "tight", but a tight disciplined player doesn't call a half pot bet on just overs with 1 to come very often!) to stick around because he thought your later donk lead was a weak bluff to represent a 3. Had you gone ahead at bet the flop as one normally would, you may not have won any more than what was in the pot then, but you also probably do ot LOSE on a pretty ugly river hit either!

Hope it helps.

-JDean

Last edited by JDean; Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 06:42 PM..
 
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Mon Apr 08, 2013, 08:58 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
There's some great analysis in this thread. JD's done the business when it comes to going into detail. You should read it a few times until some of the ideas make lightbulbs appear above your head.

But I know the OP is new to this, so I'm going to give him a standard line to take with situations like this, as it avoids getting into trouble spots.
The line is basically this:
Raise pre, because you have a strong hand. 3bb or 4bb is sufficient. You can go bigger if the blinds are very loose and will call with any two cards, because you want to start building a pot with a hand that rates to be best.
On the flop, you have a big overpair. You're beating JJ-99 and basically only losing to sets.
Bet your hand for value. Sometimes villain will fold. That's fine. He has AQ or KQs and missed. You weren't going to get any money from him unless he made top pair or a strong draw.
I'd actually go with 65% of pot for the c-bet.
The turn is a blank. Everything I said about the flop remains true here. Bet 65% of pot again.
The river is ugly. Here you can either bet half pot and fold to a raise, or you can check-call a bet of up to half pot. Some crazy players will call two streets with ace high. If that's how they play, let them have this one, but get some solid value on the flop and turn for all the times they don't suck out.

The straightforward approach to 2NL is really quite simple: Keep betting when you think you have the best hand, but be prepared to fold one pair if you get raised. Don't get fancy and check-call or make donkbets. If you were the pre-flop raiser, just bet your hand. If villain can beat your hand, he'll let you know about it, by raising.

Since villain didn't raise the flop or turn, it's unlikely he has a set. If you'd made standard bet sizes of 65% of pot on flop and turn, he doesn't even see the river, so you wouldn't have a tricky spot at all.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Arty


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