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K j off suit

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K j off suit - Tue Apr 09, 2013, 03:08 PM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Just decided to limp behing two limpers with king jack from the cuttoff and got raised villain with 80 vp who i caught raising junk hands to 10 cent when there were limpers so i decided to call i hit jacks he raises i re raise then i hit my king and decide to trap him with a bluff to get a re raise he gets all in and just look at the hand to see what he rivers, i knew i was ahead when he went all in aswell yh he could of had trips but i ruled them out cus ive seen him slow play strong hands, i swear this game is trying to take me out, this was my best hand in ages and look at this, UNBELIEVABLE
 
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Tue Apr 09, 2013, 03:28 PM
(#2)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Hey Mike, it's not unbelievable

First, you're playing 2NL, anything can happen
Second, it's a wet board (possible flush)
Third, the player has top pair with a high kicker, so he thinks he's got it made
Fourth, put top pair with high kicker with a possible flush and he's got a winner and if you include your limp pre flop, he might think you've don't have much.

Going all in with a wet board is not my favorite play, even though I do it often, it's very frustrating when they catch.
Good Luck
 
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Tue Apr 09, 2013, 03:39 PM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
whats unbelievable is these ppl going all in with 1 pair and getting lucky and im getting destroyed with decent hands and im rarely getting half decent hands and getting destroyed
 
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Tue Apr 09, 2013, 04:32 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Hi again Mike,

I really don't like the over-limp. Limping or calling pre-flop only gives you one way to win the pot, and that's by making the best hand. If you raise pre-flop, then you can often win the pot uncontested.
I think it was Dusty Schmidt that said "I think of limpers as people with holes in their pockets. They are walking along the street, and I come up behind and pick up all the money they're dropping."
If you want to win at poker, you've got to stop giving your money away and start being the aggressor when you think you're ahead.

KJ offsuit is sometimes called the "rookie hand". Other than AK, it's probably the most over-valued and over-played hand in poker. It really doesn't make much money, and has to be played with care. You wanted to see a cheap flop, but now you have to put in another 8c. Paying 10c to see a flop with KJo does not have a positive expectation in the long run, particularly as you'll miss the flop 70% of the time and be facing a hefty c-bet.

As played, you call in position and see a flop. You got a good one this time, J64tt (two-tone, meaning there's a flush draw). Top pair is a decent hand, but I wouldn't go too crazy here. KJ (like any two Broadway cards, really) is a "two street hand". If you find yourself putting money in the pot on the flop, turn and river with this hand - and you don't have the nuts - you're usually losing the pot.

Villain bets 18c into a 26c and you decide to raise. Can you explain why you are raising here?
Whether villain is betting with a made hand, a draw, or complete air, it is absolutely standard to just call. When you raise, he will fold all his weak hands and bluffs (so you don't get value), and only continue with hands that beat you, or strong draws that have a good chance to beat you. If you call, you allow him to keep betting with worse, while you make "value calls". Bloating the pot with one pair, king kicker is a mistake. Also, because your raise is only a minraise, villain has great odds to call if he has a draw.
If you were stronger (top two, trips etc) you should size your bets and raises by using an amount that is close to pot, so that you get maximum value and make it a mistake for a villain to continue. If you make a minraise, then you can't blame a villain for calling with his draw, because he's not making a mistake.

On the turn, you make top two and villain checks to you. Here's where you should make a big bet. You usually have the best hand and you want to get value for it. Getting fancy is counter-productive at 2NL. Just bet your hand. If villain is drawing, make him pay to do so.
Seriously, betting 10c into 98c is ludicrous. You're giving such great pot odds that villain could call here with any Broadway gutshot or flush draw. You're pricing him in to suck out and beat you.
What actually happens is villain check-raised because he believes he's ahead. He has top pair, good kicker and a flush draw, and your bet signified weakness.
Again, you minraise and make it correct for him to call. You've made it so villain needs to call 44c into a pot that will be $2.94. That means he only needs 44/294 = 15% equity.

Villain actually has 27% equity here. He's behind, but he will suck out almost a third of the time. (He has 12 outs, which is a strong draw, and often enough to stack off with, especially if he thinks you are weak and will fold). You have to accept that suckouts will happen, but if you'd taken a more standard line, this hand could have turned out much differently. In addition, if you price villains in to chase their draws, then it's kind of your fault if they hit them.

I'm sorry this analysis is quite brutal, but if you read it a couple of times and let the ideas sink in, it just might help.

Cheers,
Arty


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 04:36 PM..
 
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Tue Apr 09, 2013, 07:45 PM
(#5)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Hi arty

I limped kj because there were a few limpers and i thought i would look for a cheap flop,normally i fold kj most times because unless i hit a 2 pair im not gonna be to confident if i hit a king anyway i got raised 5 bbs and if this was a good player raising that it would of been an insta fold

Anyway i had notes on him and he was doing all sorts of mad stuff, he actually had decent hole cards this time but i was confident that i was ahead when i hit that jack and when he betted i knew he had missed so tryed to end it there in case he had an ace or a flush draw, hes been slow playing his hands even TPTK that's why i was sure i was ahead on the flop.

When my king hit the turn i put 10c in the pot because i was trying to be clever and making him re raise which he did so i could re raise him and he shoved making it an easy call for me, now if i was playing a good player i wouldnt have put 10c in the pot i would of put atleast 75% of the pot in but i knew this was going to show down regardless of whether or not he should be playing for a flush draw so i guess i was making moves on him i was trying to trap him and i thought i got really unlucky when that flush draw hit to be be honest

I geuss if i played it properly i would of never played it when he raised pre flop but lets say i did and called the flop i would of raised 75% of the pot bet on the turn then i might of checked that flush or fired off another 75% pot and folded a big re raise and i wouldn't have lost 5 dollars maybe just 2 or 3, but thats not the only thing playing on my mind at the minute that was like the best hand i had in ages and i was saying to myself i want to win a big pot here because im not getting many opportunity s to get my money in the middle and its quite annoying now because when i play a table full of good players i make 20c here and there with hands at best being TPTK and im breaking even over a thew hours vs them im not getting no good hands to get my money in with but as soon as i find a player whos playing 80% of his hands i get 2 pair and im like at last i can get my money in the pot and get i get destroyed by them rivering something

Anyway im not doing anymore fancy stuff i might not be getting good hands but i need to stop trying to milk bad players for 5 dollars with flush draws there im gonna play these players the way i play good players and then i wont be losing 5 dollars i have barely lost a dime to good players all the fish are taking my chips, still i think im well unlucky at the min though because either way i play that hand he was taking it to showdown.

Either way i look at it i played the hand badly but that's because the only thing i was interested in was getting my money in the middle but i done some unusaul betting which might of made him play the hand as far as he did i doubt it but im going back to proper betting and stop making these moves on bad players and see if i can take these pots down before they river a flush
 

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